The review was a year ago...let's I recall Jet, Powermatic, Delta, General, Grizzly, ...man! I slept since then...any way there were 9 total. General was the favorite of the mid-priced, Grizzly was about the bottom (out of square base, table least flat, near highest runout). Delta rated best quality value overall w/ the Powermatic (as usually the case) also good quality but at the expensive end.
Probably Lawyers.
Most prospective employers want you to provide a list of references for employment with a resume or application. Problem is, many employers are restricted by company policies on the level of information they are willing to provide about a present or former employee. Liability and privacy laws.
Might have something to do with the fact that Griz does not advertise in Fine Woodworking. Don't know whose choice it is but the Griz 1023 does well in magazines in which the advertise.
Imagine that!
The 1023 also does well with independently submitted reviews by owners. (WWA, e-opinion, amazon, various magazine forums, etc.) Owners like them and some of them are seasoned woodworkers.
Doubt seriously that had anything to do with this review...data is data.
As for not advertising in FW, I know they have in the past although I couldn't say as to which issue they have/have not or how recently (I tend to remember specific topics, etc., although my time association tends to get compressed). Such a decision (if they no longer do) although say something about their target market... :)
I suspect there's sufficient quality control issues with most of the inexpensive imports that from one review to another there could easily be sufficient variation to change order of results...there have been some review where the "high-priced spread" has arrived at the shop sadly out of adjustment or something as well--this has been reported in reviews as well so I have no basis to think the FW reviews as published are significantly influenced by advertising/advertisers.
When Grizzly buys ads, boy do they buy a lot of space, and on the very expensive pages.
I wonder why they pass on FWW?
Barry
Grizzly buys a bunch of space in "Woodshop News", which is an entirely different target than "'Murican Wooddorker" and "Family Handyman".
Maybe Taunton's prices are high?
Barry
RonB responds:
Sorry, that won't wash. A contractor is not going to ask for personal references, but only to have people who are satisfied with his work make a statement to that effect. A whole different ball game. Did the guy complete the job in an a timely manner? Did his men do a good job? Was the site properly cleaned up afterwards?
The contractor is not going to offer a reference he knows will lay his rep waste unless he's a complete and unremitting fool.
What privacy? The guy puts on a good roof or he doesn't or he's doing mediocre work.
Sorry, but the whole situation strikes me as absurd, and blaming it on lawyers is a cop-out, as far as I can see.
Charlie Self "It is when power is wedded to chronic fear that it becomes formidable." Eric Hoffer
Dunno...cost (as you noted elsewhere) could be a logical conclusion but perhaps it is simply trying to target more closely their perceived market...
I picked up an old copy that I had laying on the table that I had an article I was referring to and it did have a sizable spread...it turns out to have been an early '99 issue. I haven't done any searching in between although the 2003 issues that were handy didn't seem to have any. Another thought...perhaps the economic slowdown caused them to rein in and use scarce advertising dollars where the think to get more return????
(All pure speculation, of course, I have no inside knowledge...)
I've never actually had my hands on any Grizzly altho I do know some have reported happiness...from what I have seen, it appears that the Yorkcraft appear to be good value if one is really looking for the inexpensive or really constrained on initial purchase price. Everytime I've bought anything except what I actually wanted, though, I've ended up being so dissatisfied I've sold the cheaper and gotten the "real thing" so it cost me even more because you can never sell it for what you paid... :( I simply do w/o now until I can justify it (of course, it's easier once one does have the basics, granted)...
No more than $0.01, omo, ymmv, ... :)
What do you perceive Grizz's market to be?
(I'll make my point after you answer. )
Barry
If I can interrupt, I think part of their market would be folks like me. I grew up with the Unisaw having used them in high school shop and a college level cabinet class. These were 60's and 70's vintage machines. When I started shopping to update my old contractor's saw I was pretty well slanted toward the Unisaw.
However, after looking at a couple of new unisaws (2-3 years ago) to say I was disappointed would be understatement. Not the same machines I remembered. Machining, handwheel locks, motor covers, etc, just not the same. While I consider myself a pretty serious amateur, the $2,100 PM66 was too much money. Jet provides a nice saw but it has some shortcomings, particularly in the fences of some of their machines.
Enter, by accident, the 1023S. I was initially exposed by a cabinet shop owner who owns one as a backup to his PM66's. Said he took a chance and now finds it gets as much use as his Powermatics. Then a trip to Springfield to get a first class demo on a 1023S. In many ways, this is the machine I remember as a Unisaw, probably because it is reverse engineered. I will listen to all of the stories about off shore engineering, castings, motors, bearings etc. But after two years of ownership I need for someone to convince me that the Unisaw is worth $500 to $600 more than the 1023s. Grizzly, like any other tool-merchant, has great tools and some doggies. But considering my experience with the 1023s, Grizzlies top-rate support and the fact that several of the so called domestics are going the other direction with quality, I will always consider them in my research for any tool. It is no accident that they have a large industrial market for both wood and metal tools.
Sorry - you got me goin'
I personally don't think there is that large of a price range between a saw like the Griz 1023s and two of it's rivals - Unisaw and the Jet cabinet saws.
When I started shopping, again, 2-3 years ago the 1023s was about $875 and this bought the saw. Metal motor cover added about $30, taking the price to a little over $900 (the machine is a little cheaper now, since they have a left-tilter out).
At that time the only way I could find and price a Unisaw was with extended rails and side table that frankly is too large for a lot of smaller shops. At that time this package sold for about $1,499 and the Jet was in a slightly lower price range.
When you hang extended rails and a table on the 1023s the price came up to about $1,160 - $1,200 (with the motor cover too). About $250 - $300 less than the Unisaw. Grzzly sells direct from three locations in the US. No Wholesaler - tool shop - then customer distrubution that adds $$$. Grizzly does advertise heavily in some of the wood magazines but not on national media and they don't own guys like Norm. All things considered the price difference at the warehouse probably isn't that different among the brands.
Can't actually say what they think their market is...it apparently isn't cost-effective to advertise in FW any longer...whether that is target audience or simply absolute $$ I have no way of knowing for sure. I'm sure it's a business decision based on what they see as best for them...
I'm not denigrating Grizzly, I've never actually seen one--I just reported what was in the particular review.
...
I agree that Delta has slipped drastically (as has PM to a somewhat lesser degree, too, I think). It, unfortunately, is a "sign of the times" that the large number of consumers look at $$ only and Delta has moved towards the "consumer" market rather than remaining targetted towards commercial customers primarily in order to grow their volume.
I waited until I could afford a PM66 (and was living in TN just down the road from McMinnvilee so I saved shipping by picking it up) but that was over 20 years ago now...even they aren't like they used to be although newer fences are actually nicer than my old style one that I've not (yet) upgraded---can't bring myself to spend the $$$ they ask for Biesmeyer, etc....
There is good value to be had w/ some of the imports I'm sure. I've seen some Yorkcraft that I know are the identical as the current Chinese-built Delta. In general their fit/finish has looked every bit as good. In particular, I've been looking at the shapers to replace/upgrade my old light-duty Delta--it's limited to 1/2" spindle. If I can find a deal on an old PM Model 27 sometime, I'll jump, but so far nothing has shown up close enough to be practical...
....
... BTW (although I would have thought it obvious) I'm speaking only of the small end stuff that would typically be something individuals or smaller commercial shops would be looking at...I'm guessing you were planning to try to sandbag me that Grizzly makes/sells (I don't know who actually does their manufacturing) a full line including large commercial equipment as well...
That would be my guess too. Because they do.
This will get you to their catalogue too. Check out the companies to which they sell wood and metal working machines.
...
I have o need to...I they are in that market, too...but that is different animule than the
I didn't mean the question as a positive / negative thing, I actually think it all comes down to cost.
Why? American Woodworker, and Popular Woodworking seem to appeal to beginning to intermediate amateur woodworkers. FWW's target market seems to be intermediate to advanced amateurs, and some pros.
Grizzly also advertises in Wood Shop News, which is as straight out "trade" as it gets, with little to interest an amateur.
Barry
That's why I bought a General.
Barry
With the expansion of telephone solicitation, email spam, and junk mail we've seen in the last two decades, more people are remiss to give out their contact information for any purpose whatsoever. That doesn't have anything to do with lawyers, but it often is labled as privacy.
Bob
BillyBob makes sense with:
OK. That's understandable. But telephone solicitation is pretty much down the tubes these days, so a phone call might be a decent way to get in touch. Email has about reached the stage where it's pointless to email someone you don't already know. Junk mail isn't really relevant in this case, but is minor nuisance compared to the major PITA spam email brings on, and once almost hourly interruptions provided by phone sales types.
Charlie Self "Political language... is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind." George Orwell
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