table saw tuning

[Jones]

A couple of THOUSANDTHS?

That's about HALF as thick as a sheet of Xerox paper.

Or about a quarter the thickness of a mote of sawdust.

Or one-eighth as thick as a fleck of rust.

Or -- well, you get the idea.

If your TS fence has no more than a couple THOUSANDTHS of an inch of bow/bend/slop/whatever along its entire length, it must never have been used, and you must have bought it through NASA.

[Jones]

[John Grossbohlin]

| > "Garage_Woodworks" wrote | >

| >> "Jones" wrote | >>>> You might want to seriously consider upgrading your 'primitive

| I guess you're another one of these guys who feels he needs to have | tolerances within a few ten-thousandths. | | Tell me: Does NASA really buy that many items made of wood?

Well, the Russians used oak for heat shields instead of the fancy stuff the US used.... maybe he should make an offer for shuttle panels?

John

[Garage_Woodworks]

You tell me. (See link below)

[J. Clarke]

Early on the Russians used oak for some RVs. I don't think that that is what they used on Vostok or Soyuz though. Some sort of wood composite was used on the Polaris RV, so it wasn't just the Russians.

Trouble with oak is weight. Ever see a Shuttle tile? Set it on a table and blow on it and it will blow away. Hold it by the corners and apply an oxyacetylene torch to the center and you don't get burned. If oak was used then there wouldn't be a whole Hell of a lot of payload left and it would all have to be replaced after every flight (oak works by charring--it's a one-shot for reentery).

As for wood inside the spacecraft, there is going to be as little flammable material as possible--they learned that lesson in the Apollo fire.

[Jones]

Meh, I did. Looks to me like you write html more than anything else (except brag, Mister Medicinal Metaphysicist!)

[Jones]

You tell me: How many months (or years) did it take you to set up that new saw when you had to step back and take another picture after putting in each table-wing bolt and using your digital torque wrench to seat it within +/- 3 atto-Newton meters of torque?

(Ha, I bet you only used the *old* standard of +/- 3 FEMTO-Newton-meters of torque on the table wing bolts! Better get back out there and bring that up to spec, Feynman!)

It always cracks me up when guys seem think they can *spend* their way into craftsmanship.

Not to knock your work, dude, it all looks very nice, but you don't need a Powermatic cabinet saw -- or $150 table saw tuning jigs -- to make bird feeders or coffee tables.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't buy them if you want them and can afford them, but you shouldn't tell others that they need a $150 tool when a $60 tool will do the same thing. Yes, maybe your $150 tool will do it to greater precision, but in woodworking there comes a point when further precision is unnecessary, and spending your days chasing it -- instead of cutting the goldarn wood -- becomes counterproductive.

Two thousandths of an inch! For crying out loud, I guarantee you that a piece of wood will MOVE more than that with each breath of air that you breathe on it. The blood pumping through the capillaries of your hand holding the wood against the fence will move the wood more than that with every heartbeat.

Get real.

Jones out.

[Garage_Woodworks]

That's just it Jones. It doesn't do the same thing. That's what you seem to be missing here with your rant.

I obviously insulted you with your "tool" recommendation. Maybe it works 'great' for 'you'.

I'm not sure than why you recommended the tool you did if precision is unnecessary.

Read my review about the TS-aligner. It's not all about high precision. It's about speed of set-up. Precision is a bonus that comes along for the ride.

Take care.

[Garage_Woodworks]

Ahh. Come on Jones. That's Dr. Medicinal Metaphysicist. I didn't go to grad school for 7 years to be Mister. :^(

[Leon]

And stuff like this may explain why you don't trust the rule on your TS fence.

[Leon]

You should learn to listen and not spew before you really know what you are talking about.

[Leon]

Your eyes are brown, aren't they.

[John Grossbohlin]

| >>>

| >>> "Garage_Woodworks" wrote | >>>

| >>>> "Jones" wrote | >>>>>> You might want to seriously consider upgrading your 'primitive | >

| >> I guess you're another one of these guys who feels he needs to have | >> tolerances within a few ten-thousandths. | >>

| >> Tell me: Does NASA really buy that many items made of wood? | >

| > Well, the Russians used oak for heat shields instead of the fancy | > stuff the US used.... maybe he should make an offer for shuttle | > panels? | | Early on the Russians used oak for some RVs. I don't think that that | is what they used on Vostok or Soyuz though. Some sort of wood | composite was used on the Polaris RV, so it wasn't just the Russians. | | Trouble with oak is weight. Ever see a Shuttle tile? Set it on a | table and blow on it and it will blow away. Hold it by the corners | and apply an oxyacetylene torch to the center and you don't get | burned. If oak was used then there wouldn't be a whole Hell of a lot | of payload left and it would all have to be replaced after every | flight (oak works by charring--it's a one-shot for reentery). | | As for wood inside the spacecraft, there is going to be as little | flammable material as possible--they learned that lesson in the Apollo | fire.

Clearly I should have put a grin on that.... ;~)

John

[Jones]

Well then I guess you should be the one to clue me in!

[Jones]

I only have eyes for you, Leon. You know that.

[jo4hn]

Couldn't resist. Some of you old farts will remember...

My love must be a kind of blind love I can't see anyone but you.

Are the stars out tonight? I don't know if it's cloudy or bright I Only Have Eyes For You, Dear.

The moon maybe high but I can't see a thing in the sky, 'Cause I Only Have Eyes For You.

I don't know if we're in a garden, or on a crowded avenue.

You are here So am I Maybe millions of people go by, but they all disappear from view. And I Only Have Eyes For You.

And a free slam at the dorker of your choice if you can tell me the name of the doo-wop group. doowop shoo bop, jo4hn

[Leon]

The Flamingo's , it was IMHO brilliantly redone in 1976 by Art Garfunkel. Would you like me to e-mail you a mp3 version of the song?

[Tanus]

Ok, ok..Gotta be a troll. No one is that idiotic right out of the gate. Are they?

[Tanus]

Frankiey Valle and the 4 Seasons?

[Ed Bennett]

Hi Jeff,

Sorry to weigh in so late on this topic. Hope my comments will help you to sort things out.

There are two classic symptoms of poor blade/fence alignment:

1. Burning on the good side of the cut. This occurs when the wood gets pinched between the rear of the blade and the fence.

1. Wood wandering away from the fence during the cut. This occurs when the wood follows the lead of the blade rather than the fence. If you constrain the wood so that it doesn't wander (i.e. feather board), then there can be burning on the waste side of the cut.

This isn't a technique or a fence flatness issue. You've got classic symptom #2. Your blade and/or fence are misaligned. The distance between them at the trailing edge of the blade is greater than at the leading edge. They should both be parallel to the miter slot (the reference for blade and fence alignment).

Some people can use the subjective methods ("feel the rub", "hear the scrape") to detect and correct blade/fence misalignment. I'm not one of them and based on your current circumstances I would guess that you aren't either. So, the advice from Garage Woodworks is good. Get yourself a dial indicator jig. You can make a simple "dial indicator on a stick":

use it with your miter gauge. Or, if you want more functionality and versatility then you can buy a commercially made jig.

I see Jones has mentioned the "SuperBar" product. I bought one of these last year for competitive analysis. You can see my review here:

falls short of a dial indicator on a stick on two counts:

1. It's a lot more expensive. You can get a decent (comparable) dial indicator for less than and the rest (a stick and a wood screw) is probably sitting in your shop right now. That puts it at less than half the cost of a SuperBar.

1. It's not as easily adjusted. You can slide a stick against the miter gauge and position the dial indicator exactly where you want it. The SuperBar does not allow you to change the position of the dial indicator. You either bring the object to the dial indicator or add stylus extensions to the end of the plunger. See the review for details.

There are lots of other jigs on the market, I suggest you judge them by the same standard: the cost and versatility of a dial indicator on a stick. Most won't fair so well. If you are going to spend money on a dial indicator jig, get one that has features and functionality that exceeds that of a jig that will take you less than 10 minutes to make and cost you less than $20.

Contrary to what was said, there is no accuracy difference between a SuperBar, a TS-Aligner Jr., or a dial indicator on a stick. One might be easier to use or more versatile but they all use a 0.001"/div dial indicator. Allusions to "NASA" and "ten-thousandths of an inch" are absurd. Don't get fooled by such nonsense or discouraged by demeaning statements about the quality or craftsmanship of your woodworking (i.e. "Do you ever *cut* any wood? Or just play with calipers and micrometers and polish the fence?"). This says more about the critic than it does about you.

I see Swingman has recommended a TS-Aligner Jr. (thanks!). But, as I have seen several times now, he recommends getting it with the highest cost dial indicator you can afford. Actually, this goes contrary to what I generally recommend. You should get the lowest cost dial indicator that will suit your needs. Let me explain...

1. There is no significant accuracy difference between the lowest cost "made in China" dial indicator and the highest cost domestic brand. They all provide accuracy that exceeds the application (woodworking machinery alignment) by a good margin (5x). You will not be dealing in ten-thousandths of an inch and any attempt to do so would be extremely futile and frustrating.

1. The big differences that you see as move up to the higher cost dial indicators is in durability and sensitivity. The lowest cost model has simple brass gears and brass bushing bearings. The high-end models have hardened steel gear trains, shock-proof movements, and jeweled bearings. They are made for the rigors of industrial use.

2. I added some new dial indicators to the lineup with 0.0005"/div accuracy when I introduced the SawStop version of TS-Aligner Jr. The only reason I did this was to satisfy the recommendation in the SawStop User's Manual. The best I can figure is that they want to follow the Metrologist's 10x rule of thumb. I've been in this business for 17 years and have done a lot of testing. I have yet to see any tangible benefit for reducing alignment error to less than

0.005". I think a 0.001"/div indicator is an excellent and low cost solution.

If you are a home shop user, and you take good care of your tools, then the low cost Chinese indicator will work great and serve you for many years. If you run a commercial shop and need tools that can survive industrial abuse, then it would be wise to buy something better.

This is what I told Swingman when he called to order his Jr. He ended up following my advice by purchasing the MHC (Chinese) dial indicator. But, if he now feels that he should have purchased a high- end indicator then I would be happy to make the exchange for him. Personally, it doesn't matter to me. I pretty much break even on dial indicators.

That should pretty much cover most of it. Let me know if you have any questions.

Thanks, Ed Bennett [e-mail]

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