Shopsmith on steroids --- Felder CF 741

[Leon]

That and cutting boards takes up room too.

[Leon]

Neither do I but during the government guaranteed loans fiasco a very large number of people qualified for homes that they should not have qualified for. They were strapped for every penny and when things happened and there was not enough money to make a mortgage payment it all went to hell in a hand basket.

It did not bother or my wife either, but we were not buying or trying to sell in 2008. In Houston housing prices dipped to what they should be and selling was tough as there were many foreclosures that were dirt cheap. Either way there are many people that were able to keep their homes but are finding that with demand going back up and property values going up it is causing taxes to go way up. They can no longer afford those homes. I pay about 3% in property taxes each year. Many near by places have a higher rate.

So while those home owners technically could afford to buy the houses, they could not afford the expenses that came with those homes.

[krw]

If they had a fixed mortgage, it wouldn't have mattered. If I lost my job, I would have had a problem, too. The issue wasn't mortgages that were too large, rather people were sold ARMs. At the cost of money, at the time, ARMs were downright stupid.

I did (sold at the end of '07 and bought in August '08). No issues. I did lose $30K in '11/'12 on my house but I'll more than make that up on this one (it was a foreclosure - now "worth" almost twice what I paid for it).

Then the property taxes should have been going down when the values tanked. I pay about 1%. It was more like .5% on my last house. ;-) Taxes were on the list of the reasons we left Vermont. There was no way I could retire, given that cost of living. I don't see a reason to live where it's more expensive than necessary.

The basic problem was they had ARMs and were trapped by falling values. "Homes will always increase in value."

[Leon]

Believe me if you pay property taxes and know some one that pays less than you do, you may be paying more than necessary. Why should some one in a million dollar home pay more property tax than some in a $250,000 home. Is the guy in the million dollar home getting 4 times as many services. Probably not. Property taxes should not be based on value of the property. Everyone should pay the same amount for the same services.

Yes the taxes did go down with property values but remember that the economy tanked also and people lost their jobs. And while these homes did go down in value when the crisis hit they have now rebounded with a vengeance and have sky rocketed way past the values when originally bought.

This has have happened now instead of then because of rising costs to maintain the houses and pay taxes owed. Now the homes need to be maintained and that expense adds.

And yes the ARM was absolutely a problem but in this area the sky rocketing home values are out pacing incomes, NOW. My property taxes alone have increased an average of $200.00 per month in the last 3 years. Fortunately we paid cash for our home and did not buy bigger than we needed which financing would have afforded us.

[krw]

Why? Because it's "progressive". Why should I pay more income tax than a hamburger flipper? They're almost assuredly getting more government services than I.

That seems to be one area that Vermont actually did better. They had a "Grand List" of all property in the town. The tax rate was set at the annual budger divided by the "Grand List". If property values tank, the rate goes up. The total tax is the same (in theory). Here, the taxes colllected vary with property taxes. Seems they should vary by the "needs" of the community.

People always lose jobs. I can't imagine everyone being able to absorb a (long term) job loss without having to move. It's not a reasonable expectation.

I'm not following you. The costs today are similar to the costs ten years ago (pre-crash).

You're in a position in life where you don't need a mortgage. I have pocket change left on mine but it's not possible for everyone to be in this position. Some aren't old farts. ;-)

[Leon]

Not here, those taxes are all collected to equally supply services to the land owners.

Well look at this way. Mr. Jones lived in an apartment most of his life, he suddenly qualifies for a 3600 sq ft home because of the "government guaranteed loans". He is married and the kids are gone before he bought the house. He was so marginal on being able to afford the house in the first place that now he cannot make payments as the escrow has gone up as a direct result of the home increasing in value

30% in the last 5 years. There was a reason he was in an apartment most of his adult life, and not the government has provided a way for him to live in a neighborhood that he would not normally have been able to afford. He is not moving out until he is forced out. See where I'm going here... ;~)

Housing costs? Some of the new'ish homes that people could barely afford to begin with need new roofs, fences and values are probably up

25% from pre crash days. We have a unique situation here.

[krw]

You don't think their kids go to school, their families protected by police and fire, or colllect welfare?

Government guarantees (ick) or not, PITI of 30% is about max. The problem isn't the house but the cars and credit card debt *after* the home purchase. That's a choice.

25%? That's nothing. My house is up almost 100%, if the estimates (and tax assessments) are to be believed. And, yes, my taxes have doubled in that five years. That increase in __T_ is small compared to PI_I.

[Leon]

Well 25% is nothing but you said you were paying .5% tax IIRC. So if your home is valued at 200K now , it was 100k your tax went up a thousand dollars?

We pay 3% and have had an increase of 25% to say only $250k., so 3% of

50K is 50% more, $1500 than your increase and that has been in the last 3 years.

And these numbers are may be skewed.

But Below is fact.

A home owner in our neighborhood that has a home valued at $250K pays $7500 per year in property taxes. And many of those homes are $300k plus. A 25 percent vlaue increase on a tax that is 3% is quite a chunk.

And if you have any doubts google the complaints Fort Bend county residents are screaming about concerning raising property values. It has got the State representatives attention.

Texas can increase values up to 10% each year and they typically catch up if they missed a year, they can go up 10% for each year that they did not.

[Ed Pawlowski]

In theory it works that way. Unfortunately, too many people don't understand it. When the come around every 10 years (now 5) I hear people complain that once revalued their tax will go up. The town finance committee seems willing to make that come true. It is a money grab with an increased budget.

[clare]

Not pointing atg you, Ed - but if YOU were a city worker, a cop, a fireman, or whatever, would YOU want to work for less, just to lower the tax rate for every other resident of your city by fifty cents? Do you want to have to wait an hour for a fire truck to arrive, instead of 7 minutes? Or to wait 20 minutes for a cop to respond to an emergency instead of 3?

That's what you are asking for when you ask for reduced taxes (of course a small prtion could be reduced by reducing real waste and corruption at higher levels in some jurisdictions)

[Puckdropper]

[e-mail] wrote in news:po2q7c1u4ri4rrbmis7caf38tde1afv5pg@

4ax.com:

OTOH, are we really talking about 50 cents? Tax rates don't just go up by the cost of postage stamps, they tend to jump.

I'm happy to give the road dept, fire fighters, sheriff what they want (within reason). Those guys make my life better. Education, OTOH, is a huge money sink and I really don't know that we're getting anywhere close to the thousands of dollars they charge in value from them. They waste time with mandatory fun days, shift classes to computers where a textbook and notebook is all they really need, eliminate shop classes because of insurance, and so on.

Puckdropper

[russellseaton1]

You seem to be in favor of property taxes as a set fee. Everyone pays the exact same price. Taking the "flat tax" philosophy to an extreme. Everyon e should pay the exact same dollar amount of taxes regardless of their inco me. No progressive to it.

Found a website about Houston city property taxes that said this:

"The property tax provides more tax dollars for local government services i n Texas than any other source. Property taxes help pay for public schools, city streets, county roads, police, fire protection, and many other service s."

With streets and maybe police and fire, maybe, everyone should get the exac t same service regardless of income or wealth or property value. But most property tax money is used for public schools. In my city the wealthier su burbs with nice homes have much, much, much nicer schools than the ghettos. I would guess it is the exact same in Houston too. People with million d ollar homes want their little children to go to nice schools. Nice schools with swimming pools, new football stadiums, new basketball courts, perform ing arts centers, no lead pipes for drinking water, indoor plumbing with au tomatic flush toilets, solariums, etc. So it would be pretty hard to pay f or those nice schools in the millionaire areas if property taxes are not ba sed on home value.

Unless you are also proposing that we tax everyone the same, poor, rich, do es not matter, everyone pays the exact same tax amount. Then we give the v ast majority of that total money to the rich kids so they can have nice sch ools. Poor kids should be happy with a shack and outhouse.

[clare]

Having been part of the education system "in a previous life" I'll agree a lot of money is wasted - but watching this last election cycle in the USA I'd say not NEARLY enough emphasis is put on "education"

"Education" needs to be a priority, and money spent on "education" is never wasted. Money spent on the "education system" is almost by default wasted.\

What needs to be figured out is how to provide an adequate "education" without wasting money on the "education system"

Teachers and schools are an investment. School Districts, School Boards, etc, are a large money waster.

[Leon]

I live in an unincorporated area of Ft. Bend county, west of Houston.

So it would be pretty hard

How do you figure that? Every one pays the same tax, with some exemptions, for the very poor, and all money goes to pay the budget. If every one is paying the same it will be harder for the government to hide misuse of funds. Every one will be affected if the tax goes up. FWIW school taxes are collected but are a separate entity of property tax.

That is what I am proposing, just like everything else, sales tax, merchandise etc.

Then

No, all money goes into a general fund and is distributed equally to all schools depending on the population of students.

If rich people want something special for their kids schools they can get involved with something like the PTA to collect for special amenities.

[krw]

My point was that it doesn't work like that here. It's the tax rate that's "fixed", not the budgets.

[krw]

Considering that education is >2/3 of the budget and the education being provided, it's not easy to say we're getting our money's worth.

[krw]

Oh, good Lord. Education is a *LOCAL* issue. The federal government should have *nothing* to do with it. The Department of Education should be abolished.

[clare]

The "mil rate" is fixed - which means you pay the same per thousand dollars of "assessed value" as the next guy.

[clare]

It should be downsized - both at federal and state/province level - as should the local school boards. Put the money into schools, teachers, books and resources, not Tajma Hall board headquarters.

[krw]

There is already plenty of money in the schools. More than the results justify, certainly.