Screws vs dowels

[dpb]

That, of course, is the precise reason Maloof uses screws many places he does...

Given the tensile strength of steel, it would take a very large dowel to exceed it from a purely mechanical viewpoint. The screw will almost invariably pull from the wood by the wood failing long before the screw itself will fail.

That said, in most situations well-fitted long-to-long grain glue joints will be nearly as strong as the wood itself. Dowels can be used to increase glue area or for alignment. In most cases, it's the extra area that adds strength over the joint without them when there is added strength or they add the cross grain breaking resistance where otherwise there might only be a _relatively_ narrow long grain which could break along the grain (and not necessarily or even likely at the glue joint itself).

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[Swingman]

Dowels get my vote, but it may be irrelevant since the joint that is the result of the use either will usually be stronger than the surrounding material.

There is a world of information on the use of various fasteners in wood available on the www. Check here for starters:

[Leuf]

Really shouldn't use drywall screws for joinery, too brittle.

-Leuf

[Andrew Barss]

: That, of course, is the precise reason Maloof uses screws many places he : does...

Yes, although ironically he uses drywall screws.

-- Andy Barss

[dpb]

At least initially...like anything else he does, I think he's pretty pragmatic -- before deep thread thin shank wood screws other than drywall screws were very common, they were about the only choice w/o a real specialty search...

[Swingman]

Food for thought:

Old timey, wooden shutter frames around here were often made with M&T joints (one side, top and bottom, purposely unglued to facilitate replacing the shutters) and with a screw countersunk into the edge of the shutter frame and driven directly into the end grain of the tenons.

The screw hole was plugged to keep out the elements, but could be drilled out later if/when it eventually came time to replace the shutter slats.

It made for a helluva strong joint on big window shutters, even without glue.

Haven't seen them made that way in a long time, but it was once a common method in this part of the country.

As it is a very similar principle, it wouldn't surprise me to learn that was where old Sam got his idea for screwing his chair joints together?

There's not much new under the sun.

:)

[dpb]

Yeah, all the windows on the old barn use pins (essentially a 16d cut to length) for the same purpose. If need to make a new bottom rail, for example, just drive them on through, take it apart and do whatever...

I think the impetus for SM was that his pieces were simply too thin and he had a long vs end grain joint that wouldn't hold at all w/o a fastener. Being self-taught, he didn't know any better that he wasn't supposed to do that. Since they worked and lasted, it became his standard technique...

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[Lew Hodgett]

RE: Subject

Disclaimer:

I build "Brick Outhouses", not "Fine Furniture".

Use dowels to pin corner box joints on boat hatches and M/T joints on furniture.

Do my best to avoid either dowels or fasteners; however, if required, use S/S, coarse thread, sheet metal, self tapping screws followed by plugs in typical yacht fashion. (Yes, keep a plug cutter handy)

Lew

[nebulous12]

I have quite a few pieces of Stickley which have, in addition to exposed tenons, visible tenon-pin dowel ends, some of which are of contrasting wood. Also some with visible dowel pins in corbels. All of these dowel ends are prominent - no attempt was made to match grain. It's a feature of A&C furniture.

[Wade Lippman]

Well, if he likes to emphasize plugs, then he is someone whose opinion you have to take with a grain of salt. Of course you have to take everyone's opinion with a grain of salt, unless you enjoy having no thoughts of your own.

[Wade Lippman]

Right, and poor handling is a feature of the Ford Focus I rented last week. All that matters is that you are happy with the poorly made furniture.

[todd]

Let's see...anyone else you want to add to the list of woodworking idiots? We've already got Maloof and Stickley. Wanna add Krenov and Klausz just to round it out? You know, Klausz uses *gasp* white glue to assemble his furniture. What a moron!

todd

[Dave Gordon]

Lots of argument to and fro on this, but surely the answer is...

"What would Norm do?"

[George]

Removal resistance. The dowel does just fine in shear, but pullout is about nil.

[dpb]

That depends on grain orientation -- if it isn't cross grain, there's a pretty good area for glue joint which isn't 'nil'. Although I've never done a calibrated test, in end grain which where the dowel would have the most long-long grain, the screw might not have any more holding power, if as much, knowing that they'll tend to pull out of end grain...

Would be an interesting test just out of curiousity...

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[dpb]

todd wrote: ...

You meant "maroon" of course, I presume? :)

--

[dpb]

:)

Brads, of course--(but only until the glue dries)...

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[Leon]

I'll have to disagree with that statement if the dowel is glued in.

[Wade Lippman]

They are hardly idiots! They make mismatched furniture and convince you it is fabulous. But all this is just a fun tangent.

Arts and Crafts simply doesn't feature conspicuous plugs. The fact that Maloof might use them in some circumstances is hardly authorization for the rest of us to disregard what looks good.

Large natural emeralds are worth many times the value of large synthetic emeralds. You know how you tell them apart? By examining them under microscopes. If you can find a defect, however small, they are natural; if perfect, synthetic. Otherwise they are indestinquishable. That makes a lot of sense. Naturally, they are working to put defects in sythetic stones, so new tests are being developed.

[FoggyTown]

So you are presuming to speak for everybody on this subject? Tell me, how do I feel about Iraq? Pickup trucks?

What in God's name are you babbling about?

FoggyTown