Re: Should I get a refund on these chisels?

[Lowell Holmes]

> I bought three new_old_stock Buck Bros. bench chisels ('60's) just to have > a few in the largest sizes, from these > are > hardened to RC 59. > > The blade was sharpened and back-lapped from 220-320-600-1200 papers > for both sides, strictly by hand because my basic honing guide does not > hold > thick blades, I know I did it accurately though. > > I cleaned up tenon cheeks (meaning not the tenons themselves), the > end-flats > around the tenons that is, the wood is doug fir. I used the 2" Buck and a > 26mm Stubai bench chisel. > > But when in use, the Buck took on some nick-burs to the point where it > needs > a complete new honing after only [one_session_of_many_strokes] with a > mallet!!! These burs are sharp enought to feel. > > The Stubai chisel was used on the same job for a bit more time than the > Buck > with some equally hard slamming and it took on no nick-burs in the cutting > edge, these are hardened to RC 60. Superior steel from Austria? > > I can tell the Buck steel is decent, as it leaves a non gummy medium grey > powder on the paper, the Stubai leaves a non gummy, very light colored > grey > powder (On yellow 220 AO from Norton). > > Does anyone suspect I should get a refund on these Bucks? Pictures are on > ABPW with the title " Buck Bros. Chisels " (for searching through the > illegal > mess). Thanks much for any advise but please take all factors of mine into > account...? > > -- > Alex > cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com > not my site: have to ask. What kind of slamming did you do to the chisels. I keep

reading similar posts in the news group. I conclude that the wood is very hard or . . .

I'm not an expert, but I have built two rocking chairs with over 40 m&t joints each, using blue handled marples bench chisels and never had that kind of problem. One chair was walnut and the other was mesquite.

I'm curious if technique might have some bearing on all these bad chisels we keep hearing about. (Not you, but many other wood workers)

Having written the nonsense above, FWW has a video by Jim Cummings, "Small Shop. Tips and Techniques". It deals with many things, one of which is sharpening chisels and includes a very good session on removing the temper from the steel, shaping the steel as required and then setting the proper temper.

Also as I re-read my post, I'll add the following.

I keep a leather strop, charged with a sharpening compound close at hand. When an edge develops a burr, a couple of passes on the strop normally takes care of it. I don't use scary sharp techniques. I prefer diamond EZ-lap hones. I suppose I expect chisels to turn under with use. I think the burring issue is why many wood workers use micro bevels. I typically do not use them, but on one of my hand planes I do use it.

:-)

[bridger]

once, in the distant past, buck made nice edge tools. that time is long gone.

you might try giving them a few more honings- if the factory grind burned the steel you will need to hone past it.

at best you'll end up with a decent utility set.

[fredfighter]

The typical complaint about Marples is the opposite of his complaint about the vintage Bucks. Marples tend not to hold an edge implying that they are too soft, hence the frequent honing you reccommend.

Perhpas the Buck should be ground to a steeper angle. Unless they paring chisels in which case you shouldn't pound on them in the first place.

[Lowell Holmes]

That was my point. If the chisels are adequately sharp, you don't need to "pound" on them. I use a wooden mallet when making mortises. I never have to pound on them to chop the mortises. It doesn't require that kind of force. I have old wooden handled Stanleys, more modern plastic handled Stanleys, wooden handled Soligan steel, Robert Sorby, Marples, and some others. None of them require heavy handling.

If the chisel is burring when it is used, I'd think the steel tends to be more ductile, if it chips, more brittle.

However, having said all that dumb stuff , I keep reading posts about people destroying their chisels. I just wonder what they are doing to cause that, Tag Frid didn't pound his and in the videos I've watched, Frank Klausz gives them a sharp rap, but nothing destructive. Rob Cosman doesn't beat his either. It is a re-occurring complaint though.

I think I remember someone complained about Two Cherry's, and you can find detractors for all those I mentioned.

[AAvK]

Oh yeah?... you think I should call the Riverlin Works and ask all about it and whether or not I should get a refund???

[AAvK]

or . . .

"Slamming" as in a manner of speaking, using the chisel with a mallet.

each, using blue handled marples bench chisels and

Those are tauted to be made with decent steel anyway.

keep hearing about. (Not you, but many other wood

Any use of a chisel has bearing on it.

Shop. Tips and Techniques". It deals with many things,

removing the temper from the steel, shaping the steel as

an edge develops a burr, a couple of passes on the

diamond EZ-lap hones. I suppose I expect chisels to

I am doing the "Scary Sharp" method, works fantastic, and I know how to do it quite well. I wouldn't want to scratch up my expensive strop leather (I have horse butt hide) with those burs.

My original question really meant: "Is it normal and acceptable that these chisels are doing this...???" ...kind of thing.

[AAvK]

I definitely got the micro bevel steep enough... these chisels are the bench chisels,made by Buck Bros. in the 60's sold as new old stock, RC 59.

[AAvK]

pound on them to chop the mortises. It doesn't

plastic handled Stanleys, wooden handled Soligan

ductile, if it chips, more brittle.

people destroying their chisels. I just wonder what they

watched, Frank Klausz gives them a sharp rap, but

complaint though.

detractors for all those I mentioned.

Try a Stubai chisel, superlative. But, have you ever chopped into douglas fir? It has grain that is seriously thick with a rubber-like hardness. You'd wind up doing a bit of slamming.

The Stubai, as I said, did not take burs. I think when I used the 2" Buck chisel it was the wideness of the blade causing too much resistance, the Stubai being only

1" (26mm). Same reasoning behind making a proper low angle block plane's blade 1-3/8" wide rather than 1-5/8" wide, less resistance on end grain.

As with chopping into the DF wood, these were the "cheeks" that are around the tenons, which is end grain. Very tough stuff.

[AAvK]

No... these are new_old_stock Buck Bros. bench chisels. If you go to

you'll read the story there. Quite a nice find really. These blades were made in the 60's and were found in factory storage at The Riverlin Works. I use the "Scary Sharp" method.

[Mike Marlow]

Well, I suspect either they or the retailer would be able to better advise you on refunds than a newsgroup can.

[bridger]

ayup. sorry about that, brain fart.

I'd still not give up on them based on the first honing.

[Lowell Holmes]

to chop a large mortise in it to see how it goes.

When I build wooden fence gates, I put a header across the gate posts at 90" above grade. I make the connections in the 4"treated pine M&T joints. I was using a 2" carpenter's slick but some previous owner has lost the wooden handle and generations have struck the steel socket with a steel hammer. I decided this both dangerous and sacrilegious. I went to the local hardware man and purchased a 2" plastic handled Stanley no. 60 (recent manufacture) After giving it the treatment, the chisel performed reasonably well chopping mortises in the treated pine (with it's wet stringy fibers).

My strop is a piece of rawhide glued to a flat board. I have a "brick" of wax impregnated with aluminum oxide. The strop is charged with this compound. This waxy surface will almost polish the edge to a mirror sheen. I wouldn't want to use a nice horsehide strop in that manner either. Each of us use the sharpening technique we like and I certainly was not impugning those that scary sharpen their tools. :-)

I think obviously you are not satisfied with the Buck Brothers chisels. With you having examined the conditions surrounding their use, I think conversation with the people that sold them to you would be appropriate, to determine if they thought your set is defective. I would be inclined to take some of the hardness out of your chisels and see if it made an acceptable difference. See the Jim Cummings tape to learn the technique.

I hope you get it worked out. :-)

[Rick Cook]

How do you know how hard they are? Your photos of the edges over in the binaries group show all the signs of too-soft steel. If they were really RC 59 I'd think they'd be more likely to chip the edge than curl it. That would be true even if they were sharpened too acutely to use with a mallet, like paring chisels.

If you're relying on what Buck Bros told you about the hardness, well. .

--RC

[Rick Cook]

From the web site: "Today, 140 years later, quality chisels are still produced at the Riverlin Works."

Danger! Danger Will Robinson!

I don't think I'd trust these people.

--RC

[Mark]

I have several Buck Brothers chisels. They work great when framing projects present the need. I use other brands in the woodshop. Mark

[AAvK]

Oh why oh why pray tell? What do you know that everyone else doesn't? Is that Riverlin works long gone?

Take a look at the Deifenbacher website, he sells chisels that are his own brand, and are as well identical to these Bucks. They are still being produced (Bill Kohr could be fibbing in which case...who knows), site:

concerning craftsmanstudio.com for what he says about his Bucks is something to think about.

[AAvK]

Thanks but nothing was based on the first honing, I did just fine.

[AAvK]

I'd think they'd be more likely to chip the edge

use with a mallet, like paring chisels.

I only know by what

says about them. RC 59. But thanks for the tip... neither Buck Bros. nor the Riverlin works has a website. You are saying stuff without reading the rest of the thread brudda...

[Rick Cook]

Because Buck Brothers has been making absolute crap for years. Any merchant who would praise the quality of their current tools is, shall we say, suspect.

--RC

[Rick Cook]

I'd think they'd be more likely to chip the edge

use with a mallet, like paring chisels.

Uh wrong. I've been following the thread with some interest, after I saw the pictures you posted.

--RC