After all my years of woodworking you'd think I'd know this but thought I'd ask. Do (horizontal) rails ever extend over the top/bottoms of the (vertical) stiles? I always thought rails stopped at the stiles but ....
Maybe I don't understand your question but if the rails extend to the end of the door, wouldn't they, by definition, become the styles? The door would then be mounted sideways? This probably isn't usually done for strength reasons. Since it's not common, it would probably look weird.
Yes they do/can. But the accepted way is as rails between stiles.
I have had the rails past the tops and bottoms of the stiles when the rail end grain was going to be a visibility issue and or when they needed to look continuous, like when several doors were in a row.
Here is an example of the rail over the stile orientation that I did about 20 years ago for a customer. She wanted it that way.
The center housed a 35" Sony TUBE TV and the tall side drawers on both sides housed 1,000+ CD's. About 12' wide.
I believe we went through all this on my baby gate post, didn't we? :-D I don't think there's a set-in-stone rule. I believe tradition is what has brought us the current configuration and the tradition may have stemmed from strength of the joint. With modern techniques, glue, and joinery, I say leave it up to what works/looks best for you in each circumstance.
First I have never made a door, but it seems the rail over the stile would be stronger from the total door point of view, as the stress would be across the width of the style, ie nominally 2+ inches length of the joint. vs stile over rail which would be the bend the joint across the joint.
ie a book opens freely when you open it oposite the bound side the (joint), but can be quite strong if you try to tear it in half.
This is dificult to describe, but I hope you see what I am trying to say.
I didn't even know what "rails and stiles" were. Now, thanks to you all and the internet, I do! Again, thank you to all you 'wood masters'.
BTW MIKE, how does one apply "rails and stiles" to a "gate post"? (serious question). ;)
nb
DOH! It was a "baby gate" post. OK, now I get it. ;)
nb
I think that 99% of the time factory built furniture will have the rails between the stiles.
Well, for those who do care about it I was simply saying there was a lot of discussion about it in that thread, in case they wanted to look it up.
HA! Yeah, I saw that you figured it out in your next "post." That homonym can be confusing in the context of the subjects we often discuss, huh?
That is certainly true. However, I still contend the reason for that is more form over function in modern manufacturing. It certainly looks weird to see cabinet frames and/or doors that have rails which extend to the sides. But why does it look weird? Because you hardly ever see it, or because it's structurally unsound?
Percisely!
I say the first. No one has yet convinced me that the joint is any weaker.
There is no reason they cannot but if they do it is a good idea to make the bottom one extend over too. And if there is to be a middle rail, you have made your life more complicated.
IMO, the main reason for rails over stiles is for outdoor stuff to cover up the stile end grain, protecting it from water.
I'd agree with pretty much everything said, for and against.... and it seems the general application idea is for doors, cabinets, and the like. I suppose the rails over the stiles would, in most/many cases, look awkward for most applications.
A variation (?) of the stile-rail configuration, and considering what works best and what looks best for a design, is the backrest of (example) dining chairs. The top "rail" is over the "stiles" in many chairs, similar chairs.
When I build chairs, I consider the backrest to be a stile-rail construction technique. I don't know if "real chair makers" have a different/correct(?) definition/terminology.
Sonny
It wasn't a door, but the frame for my TV antenna (it's a wire array with insulating, wood, support) has the rails-over feature, with the mortises blind at the top, and through on the bottom. Both mortises are intended to drain (or at least dry) fast as the rain comes in.
It's a door-like item, with frame-and-no-panel construction.
Traditionally the rails are captured between the stiles, but I suppose you could have the stiles captured by the rails. My only thought would be that in the latter case you *might* risk binding of a solid wood panel when/if the stiles and panel both expand due to humidity. If the stiles capture th e rails you eliminate any effect from the stile expansion.
whaaaaaaaat?
you could have the stiles captured by the rails. My only thought would be that in the latter case you *might* risk binding of a solid wood panel when /if the stiles and panel both expand due to humidity. If the stiles captur e the rails you eliminate any effect from the stile expansion.
Any expansion of stiles with rails captured in the middle of them goes to t he outside - door gets wider overall - panel opening side to side stays con stant. (Rails stay same length, stiles get wider) If stiles are captured by rails where does expansion occur - split equally inside and out? only ou t? only in? I don't know...depends on the glue up? I'm just thinking of b readboard ends on tables in the northeast. In humid summer table wider tha n ends, in dry winter table narrower than ends. Much narrower scale of cou rse... And could it also impact the hinges/swing of the door? All expansi on normally occurs to non-hinge side overall. The more I think about it, t he more I think that stiles capturing rails is the "right" way to do it.... YMMV.
The panel isn't captured at all. The frame can grow in any dimension it likes (panel, same-same). Breadboard ends aren't the same kettle at all.
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