OT: Theft by any name is still theft.

Agreed. There's no question there. It doesn't make any difference whether you steal from a bookstore or off the net, it's still theft.

You are 100% right. But there is another reason not to steal copyrighted material, and I have to admit, it is a very selfish one. What would that reason be? If you liked it enough to steal it (whether it be a plan, a magazine, an article, or a software program that you "borrowed"), then you would probably like it enough that you would want to have more articles, improved software, more books, new plans, new songs, etc. But if there is insufficient profit in this venture, it will not continue, or it will not continue in a quality manner. So who loses? We all do.

Integrity - it's doing the right thing even when nobody is looking.

Regards, Fred Port Huron, Michigan

Yeah. They like something so much they steal it. So what do they do with bad stuff - they give them money?

Strange logic. It strives to drive good stuff away.

I make my living off intellectual property that can be easily copied, so I am actually quite sympathetic to your point of view. And, indeed, copyright violation is a crime, of sorts. But "theft", ah well now, that is a stretch.

Oh god, someone always gotta bring the children into it.

The waitress is now short money. In most cases, she will have to make up for that money in her pocket. So, the waitress has less money then she did. Copyright violation deprives the copyright holder the *potential* to profit, but does not take money out of their pocket.

Store is made less money then it would have; a little more like copyright violation, but the fact the store no longer has the item to sell makes a big difference. When you copy something, you do not deprive them of the potential to sell it to someone else, only the potential to sell it to you. If you give a copy, it is closer to real theft. If you sell a copy, now you are much closer to real theft since clearly the buyer was willing to pay (some amount). The penalties are much higher as well.

Again, all of these are not the same as copyright violation. Again, when you copy, the original holder still has the goods, they are only denied potential revenue; nothing has been taken from them. The law differentiates between the two acts for very good reasons.

Again, I don't approve of the action, but do get a little tired of the hype of "theft is theft" etc.

On a completely different topic, here is the irritating thing: Not only is it *cheaper* to copy a PDF, but is sure is more convient. Why do these guys always have to be dragged out of the dark ages kicking and screaming? I would be so much more inclined to buy if I could a) buy article by article and more importantly b) buy on-line and have electronic delivery.

PK

Isn't that a corrollary to Godwin's Law?

For those who don't know what Godwin's Law is:

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

Well put Paul.

In a past life the company I worked for prepared textbooks for hypertext delivery. (If you've ever seen the Dietel & Dietel "how to program" CDs you've seen my work (at least on the early ones)). At that time (6-12 years ago) it cost on the order of $5K - 10K to prepare the text for a book like that. I would guess that I could make a simple password protected and encrypted version of a magazine with full linking and indexing for under $2K now. I think a lot of magazines are missing the boat by not taking advantage of that for their back issues. How about a fully linked version of Fine Woodworking? Click on "Tage Frid" and get a short bio and a full bibliography with links to all his work in FWW. XML makes this sort of thing simple. At this point *PDF* is the dark ages.

Tim Douglass

Remember the pawn shop/ebay thread, well this morning one of our number (I can't say more without giving the game away) spotted a truck part that looked wrong in the photo, looked a bit harder and compared details with a reported stolen truck from 150 miles away, yep some bastard tried to paintshop the details out, the authorities have been informed. But not ebay yet so they don't warn the son of a bitch!

Ebay, no thanks, too many doubts....

So far, so good.

So...you're blaming eBay, for the action of criminals? Will you blame AT&T if the guy has a telephone, as well?

Try thinking a little more clearly. He's not blaming Ebay, he's suggesting that there's greater possibility of something being stolen because of the anonymity of the Ebay process. Not the same thing at all of blaming them.

If the criminal element of this country is using ebay as a means to dispose of their loot, at some point you have to take measures to eliminate this means of enabling their criminal activity. Misuse of the internet by an individual to dispose of stolen property is one thing while a business enterprise that provides the means for criminals to dispose of their loot is quite another.

Saying you won't use eBay because of the action of a criminal, is depriving them of business for something that isn't in their control. Punishing party A for party B's action, is irrational. eBay is very good about terminating fraudulent auctions (and the people posting them). Fix the system.

If they take out ads in the local paper, do you shut down the newspapers? How do you propose that eBay assure everyone that everything listed is from

They also drive on our roads, use telephones, and the US Mail. All of these are also used vastly more for legitimate purposes.

So, you _are_ blaming eBay. Why not, you know, blame the criminal?

As well as the follow ups pointing out eBay will respond aggressively if someone points out an illegal offering.

Ya wanna blame them for people offering $20,000 for a french fry that looks sort of like Lincoln's profile? In fact they closed that one, then put it back up again. Where's the crime!?

Find a line to draw, in there :-)

James snipped-for-privacy@rochester.rr.com

I have been offered stolen stuff at least 6 times in my life, every time was late at night in a pub. I like bars, so I hope you aren't suggesting we close them because they happen to be one of the foremost places to purchase stolen stuff. Drugs as well BTW.

When Phones are Outlawed, only outlaws...

Looking forward to the day. I hate the phone. I always use the excuse I'm in the shop and can't hear it. I let the answering service answer both my regular phone and cell. If it's important they will leave a message or email me.

Exactly, it's the same kind of thinking.