OT: Seeking Comparison of building costs by type

[Robert Bonomi]

The -big- secret to driving in bad weather, is 'finesse'. go easy on the gas pedal, easy on the brakes, and easy on the steering. "Plan ahead", and minimize the need for abrupt changes.

A 'limited-slip' differential ("Posi-trac", or similar) is a *big* help in adverse conditions. 4wd is even better (it always includes 'limited-slip' between wheels), but the advantage of 4-wheel over 2-wheel is minor, compared to the benefits of limited-slip over a standard rear-end.

Emergency handling (regardless of whether it is snow, rain, or dry-pavement) characteristics -- and what you do as the driver -- *do* vary greatly, depending on whether you have front-, rear-, or all-wheel drive.

This is _mostly_ a matter of being familiar with what you have, and knowing how to use it. Front-wheel drive has some advantage -- mostly in that it is easier for the _un-skilled_ driver to 'do the right thing'.

[Robatoy]

'cept on pure black ice, where it tends to force the vehicle in a straight line when you're trying to turn.

[Dave Hall]

It should be noted that rear wheel drive pick-ups and rear wheel drive cars are different in how they act in snow. Trucks are VERY light over the wheels and the back end can let go rather easily. Some weight in the back is helpful, but can be dangerous in sudden stop situations. 4 wheel drive certainly helps in starting out, going up snowy hills and getting out of snow drifts (when you slide into them or when the snowplow plows you into your driveway). Niether 4 wheel drive nor limited slip helps in slowing down, stopping or going downhill though :-)

The best car I ever drove in the snow was an old Checker taxicab...you know, the ones that look like 1950's cars. They were heavy rear wheel drive cars. I drove cab all over very hilly Morgantown WV one winter while in college. Morgantown did not believe in salt. They did a little plowing and a few cinders but mostly you drove on the packed snow.

Dave Hall

[Swingman]

Best one this "cracker" ever drove in heavy snow/ice, by far, was a 50's VW bug, in Bavaria, during two winters of record snow fall. Easy to handle on ice, and with chains it would go when the snow plows wouldn't. I left the

72' 2002 ti in the garage and drove the bug during blizzard conditions, 28 clicks on mountain roads each way, to the base for days at a time.

It _had_ to be the car, cuz apparently "crackers", particularly those not impressed with snow driving braggadocio, aren't supposed to know how to handle that.

[Thomas Bunetta]

Hey Swingman, we crackers jes' pretend its sugar sand. I reckon the 500 pound liftgate hanging off the rear of my 2WD f-150 might serve a dual purpose, eh? Tom

[Edwin Pawlowski]

Mine was a '62 Corvair Monza with oversized (7.00 x 13) tires. Hardest part was weaving around the cars that were stuck on the hills.

[Edwin Pawlowski]

Well the first time will surely be a fun trip for you.

If you are concerned (and you should be) get a neighbor to take you to a large unplowed parking lot. Get behind the wheel and let it rip. After a few slides and spins, you'll find it just takes a light touch and thinking ahead. Snow is not bad at all, but ice can be terrifying.

Some people should not drive in the snow at all. I was going to work one day and saw lights flashing around a bend. When I got there a car had slid off the side. Nothing serious, but it had to be pulled out by a tow truck. On the way home that evening as I crested a hill, a car going down was off the side of the road. Yep, same one.

[Norman D. Crow]

Just what the heck are you doing trying to drive on pure black ice? Done a LOT of winter/blizzard driving all my life, 2 wheel front and rear, 18 wheels. The one thing I learned above all is get off the road when it's black ice!(if you haven't already slid off the road, that is) Stuck in a freezing rain on I-69 in IN, drivers on shoulder had to shut the diesels down because just the vibration of it idling was causing rig to slide off the shoulder into the ditch.

Front wheel drive may be a little better for the inexperienced who have learned on it, but if someone has learned and driven on snow with rear wheel drive, then they will NOT do the right thing with front drive unless they are thinking about it all the time. Learned rear drive instincts are the wrong thing to do with front drive.

Limited slip does help, and weight in the back of a p/u helps. I use 5 or 6 long tubes of "traction grit", about 300+ lb. right between the wheel wells with a wood 2 x 6 frame to keep them from sliding forward. Worse comes to worse, you can cut them open and spread the grit under the wheels.

One of my favorite gripes are 4 wheel drives. Yes, as someone said, they do GO, but they don't stop a bit better, and everyone with an SUV suddenly thinks they're "bulletproof"!

LROD knows where I live, so he knows that I know whereof I speak. I'll get off the soapbox now.

[LRod]

I have absolutely the same feeling about 4WD (although I love it). You can go like hell, but...and then I use the exact words you did.

A friend of mine from Minnesota (they know a little about snow driving, too) put it best years ago as I was moving from Florida to Illinois for my matriculation--I had asked him about snow tires. He said he'd never had 'em. And in 26 nears I never had 'em either.

He said it's all about speed control. And he's right. Don't do anything fast. Don't try to accelerate fast, don't try to slow down fast, don't try to turn fast, don't try to drive fast. There's a whole lot more anticipation in snow driving than regular. As we say in aviation, you have to stay ahead of the airplane.

Someone mentioned the parking lot thing. I used to love to do that, just for the sport, although I educated SWMBO and trained the two kids that way. There's nothing more effective for learning how to handle a car than spinning donuts, slipping and sliding, and reversing direction on a snow covered parking lot..

You may have noticed I mentioned Chautauqua County elsewhere in this thread. Not for nothing.

[Norman D. Crow]

OOPS! Missed that little mention at the end of your post. Anybody who can consistently survive winters here in hilly Jamestown can be said to be experienced. Next best thing to black ice is "wet" snow(@about 30 deg.F) on a brick paved hill. Wheeeeeeeee!

[Robatoy]

Well, Norman, I wouldn't exactly go looking for black ice, *G*. But you run into it sometimes. SW Ontario is notorious for that.

[Edwin Pawlowski]

Reminds me of one early morning when I picked up a co-worker to head for the airport. We reached a slight down hill so I stopped at the top to see the situation. I told Al "I'm going to go down along the curb so I'll get traction from the old sand" (from previous snows).

We started down very slowly and Al said "I though you were going to go down on THIS side."

I replied "so did I"