New To WW - What Is With All The Norm Bashing?

[BJS]

As a child, I always enjoyed tooling around in our garage. I built a few 2x4 and plywood tables and other projects. When I left home around age 20, I was off in apartments for a number of years. Over the last couple of years I have watched NYW, Norm, and TOH on PBS. It rekindled my interest in woodworking, and I vowed to create a shop and build projects once I had the space.

Well, I have a decent shop now. A TS, a jointer, a compound miter saw, and some hand power tools.

Norm is the guy who got me interested in woodworking. He has inspired me to take up this great hobby. Maybe it is my ignorance, but I have always been impressed by what I see him produce. I am not so stupid as to not realize that he makes mistakes, and for the sake of TV time, the mistakes aren't shown. I realize that it would not be as easy as Norm made it look.

I've been lurking here on this NG on and off. I've come for tool reveiws, solutions to problems, etc. And I noticed here and there a war that has gone on for a very long time on this NG - to Norm or not to Norm.

Why?

What, specifically, is so bad about Norm? If he has been my main source of learning and inspiration, will I be damned to a future of poor quality projects?

I see that a lot of the fighting comes from the "purist" hand toolers vs. the Norm power toolers. Some people seem to be offended just by the fact that he uses power tools. It is interesting to note that in Norm's first book, he mentions how he grew up using hand tools, and mentions the skills that his dad taught him. He says NYW is a departure for him from those teachings, and a chance to use power tools to build traditional furniture.

So, two questions from a ww newbie:

How am I being harmed in my quest to make nice projects if I follow Norm's techniques? What are specific things he does that are "bad" and what are the "better" ways of doing them?

Thanks for your comments.

Thanks, Brian

[Roy Neudecker]

Brian,

The NYW has been an inspiration to many people. So don't let the negative influence get to you. Those do-it-yourself show are designed to do just that. Get people thinking in a direction to start doing it yourself. I think Norm is a great example of that. That he deserves the title Master Craftsman (or whatever that title he has) or not I cannot say. I think that would depend if he could sell enough of his work or not. Because lets face it being a Master at anything means nothing if nobody likes it enough to buy it.

Take time to learn the skills of Norm. But don't stop there. Because there are a lot of great woodworkers out there. Some who are safety minded some who are not. Some who use brads to hold it together while the glue dries some who use only clamps. Use what works for you. If it doesn't look good to you don't use it. If it ever gets down to selling your stuff then you will have to do what the customer will buy.

You know safety is important. And, we here cannot stress enough about it. But, I remember Sam Maloof saying something about the danger of way he uses the bandsaw to freehand his work. I am not telling you to go out and put yourself into a dangerous situation by this comment. But, Sam Maloof I would consider a Master Craftsman. He does stuff that is not safe. Does that make him any less a Master? Hell, no.

These guys are great guys here. They know a lot about woodworking. But, take it with a grain of salt. Some are jealous, some are talking out their ass and some are Masters. But. unless you can separate who is what beware. In any case everybody has a different style in the way they work. Try to take something from everybody. Eliminate the garbage and keep the good.

Roy Roy

[The Other James]

JOAT, you owe me a keyboard. Ever try to get half-chewed peanuts out of a keyboard?

[Unisaw A100]

Depends on which end they came from (tm Webster Steve).

Any corn in there (more tm Webster Steve)?

UA100

[Glen]

Damn, I hate it when someone actually make sense through logical thinking. How un-wreck-like.

Glen

[Andy Dingley]

We (generally) have a very high regard for Norm.

So we're especially saddened to see him _almost_ make something really good, but foul it up at the last minute - usually by some tar-pit of a finish from a tin. We know the guy could do better !

I understand why corners get cut for a TV program. But I'd still love to see a bit more where he made something quick and simple, but demonstrated some real finishing on it.

-- Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods

[Tom Watson]

And once more they will follow El Cid into battle, even though he is already dead.

Regards, Tom Thomas J. Watson-Cabinetmaker Gulph Mills, Pennsylvania

[James D Kountz]

Hear hear Roy!! Very well said. I think that about covers it.

Jim

[Coach Mike]

OK, I'll bite. Why is Bob evil?

Mike

[Larry Bud]

I love Norm, but I think the main beef is that he seems to nail EVERYTHING together. You don't need nails, just glue and a crapload of clamps. The nails do nothing but hold the piece together while the glue dries, and they put holes in an otherwise nice surface.

Otherwise, I have to say, I would know the difference between a mortise and a tenon if it weren't for Norm.

[Scott Cramer]

On 09 Dec 2003, Coach Mike spake unto rec.woodworking:

Bob is willing to shill any product for any advertiser willing to pay his fee. His personal integrity in this regard places him well below used car salesmen and real estate agents; but, to his credit, somewhat higher than personal injury lawyers.

That doesn't make him evil, actually. Just beneath contempt.

[Chris Merrill]

Nothing...some people are just snobs! ;)

But seriously...everybody approaches woodworking differently, with differnt goals. The furniture Norm produces is solid and usable...but is not of the exceptionally high quality that you see from David Marks. And of course, there's the polyurethane thing. Norm puts it on just about everything...so people who don't like poly bash him for that.

Personally, my skills will probably never match Norms. With the exception of leaving visible brad-nail heads everywhere, I strive to (someday) be as good as Norm. I, too, was inspired by Norm. He makes it all look very easy...if only we had all those tools!

C

[jo4hn]

Well JOAT and Roy and others have said it well. I have nothing more to add so I will add it. Most of us have some power tools and some hand tools. If power tools predominate you are a Normite. If hand tools, you are a Neanderthal (or simply Neander). The patron saints of these groups are Norm Abram and Roy Underhill.

[shameless shill mode on]Go to and move down through the pages. Page 1, panels 1 and 2 are caricatures of my granddaughters. Go to page 5 for one of Norm and Roy. Good stuff. Wish I had the talent that my daughter does. [shill mode off].

As l> As a child, I always enjoyed tooling around in our garage. I built a [snip]

[Gene]

Sort of hard to add to what JOAT said in summing up the general feeling on the Wreck. As has been pointed out Norm sparked interest in woodworking. He got started in the entertainment business by being a subcontractor on jobs for TOH. His background is that of carpenter rather than furniture maker or boat builder although he does an adequate job on these other areas. To compare his work with the likes of Sam Maloof would not be appropriate. Likewise, seeing a show on Sam Maloof would be very interesting, but could you imagine him doing a weekly TV show and gaining any ratings?

What annoys? Most of my life I've worked with pine. I'm just getting to where I can afford a little hardwood now and then. This last weekend I watched the rerun of Norms roll top desk. I enjoy this show because I've built a roll top in pine and would love to do one in oak like Norms. I cringe when I see him nail thru the lift bars on the tambour where the holes will be visible to everyone that looks at the piece. I know that a lot of this is driven by TV schedules and a lot is driven by Norm's background. As Roy pointed out, nail vs. clamps only, or maybe screws from the back. Another thing that annoys is his use of glue. I don't care how much he uses, but the fact that he gets away with it is annoying. Whether I wipe with a sponge, or let dry and scrape, I always end up with a white mark someplace that won't take finish.

So much for rambling. JOAT said it: "Norm is good, Roy is good, Bob is evil."

Gene

[Bay Area Dave]

I think Norm is a cool guy and his easy going personality is a pleasure to absorb during his shows. Quite a difference between him and most of the other celebrity woodworkers.

As far as what seems to elicit the most disapproval, I'd venture to say it's his penchant for overusing his brad nailer. I'm not fond of nail holes or filling them.

Most of the time I'm too busy to catch his shows, but when I do, I feel bad for having missed so many of them. I admire the guy.

dave

BJS wrote:

[dave]

He WAS a used car salesman. Don't you remember the lawsuit he got hit with for acting as a general contractor on that house out in California. It all came out when he was deposed. He never had a subcontractor license or any notable experience. Dave in Fairfax

[Dave Mundt]

The thing that amazes me is that we have gone at least three or four months without a Norm thread. Wonder if the original poster is one of Norm's interns, trying to keep his name in the news? In any case as I have mentioned before, I like NYW, and part of the pleasure was going from "hum...I might could do that" to "Yea, I can do that" to "Haw...I can do that BETTER" He is an engaging and pleasant fellow who is a great spokesman for the hobby, and, has introduced many folks to it in a non-threatening way...what more could we ask for...especially since David Marks is on the air now! Regards Dave Mundt

[Gregg Germain]

: I see that a lot of the fighting comes from the "purist" hand toolers : vs. the Norm power toolers. Some people seem to be offended just by : the fact that he uses power tools.

Mmmmm that's not what I've noticed. For example, I see lots of handtoolers in awe of Frank Klauz. Klauz uses power tools. And hand tools. In his videos, he shows many ways to accomplish the same task (e.g. mortice and tenon joints).

Klauz takes the sensible approach that if all you have to do is a few joints then hand tools are the way to go because you save setup time.

: Norm's first book, he mentions how he grew up using hand tools, and : mentions the skills that his dad taught him. He says NYW is a : departure for him from those teachings, and a chance to use power : tools to build traditional furniture.

Klauz uses power tools.

: So, two questions from a ww newbie:

: How am I being harmed in my quest to make nice projects if I follow : Norm's techniques? What are specific things he does that are "bad" and : what are the "better" ways of doing them?

It isn't his tools so much as some mistakes he made in the past concerning wood movement etc. He's gotten a lot better over time.

Then, too, there is this visceral dislike, in some of us (I'm one of them) of the use of the pneumatic nailer to hold things together. It's irrational but it's there.

--- Gregg

My woodworking projects:

Replicas of 15th-19th century nautical navigational instruments:

of my 82 year old Herreshoff S-Boat sailboat:

FAQ with photos:

"Improvise, adapt, overcome." [e-mail] Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics Phone: [phone]

[mttt]

Swallow the Red Pill if you really want to know. Swallow the Blue Pill if you wish to remain blissful.

[mttt]

She's pretty good!