New shop, electrical question

[Martin Eastburn]

When Military stations went under OSHA, an OSHA man came to inspect the largest man made structure in the world - a massive Radar building.

Many floors of special hardening e.g. the toilets were mounted on springs and flex tubing... It could take a 75Megaton blast on the side.

This is something of a building. Anyway - he was looking around and couldn't find anything - Mil spec everywhere. He walked by my Dads desk and spotted a "Polly Pot" - A green plastic coffee pot. He stopped and spied a 2 wire cord on the pot. Ah Ha ! - Violation at last. Dad informed him that the plastic was non-conductive. He stood firm and so Dad went into the shop, got a 3 prong plug and wound a green wire along the two wire - and with a lug and sheet metal screw (SS) attached it to the pot. Dad installed it - the man was pleased he found and had the error corrected. - Dad kept it that way until he signed the site over to NASA. Mechanical connection...

Mart> I bet the NEC makes no distinction with glass and plastic for grounding

[smandel]

Armor is also used as the ground.... in NYC, where the code is unbelievably strict, armored cable is ALL they let you use - no romex at all. Using 2-12 armor is standard for a 20 amp breaker. Just make sure that you use metal boxes (not the plastic crap) and make sure the connections to the boxes are tight.

shelly

[smandel]

again, see my earlier post - ever hear of 12-2? (there is a 12-3 used for 220 lines)

shelly

[smandel]

Didn't have to use it - if you've ever connected the ribbon (it's really a thin aluminum wire) you'd see how crappy it is. I'd feel safer with bx to box connections.

shelly

[smandel]

after all, consider the mayhem that can be caused by accidentally pinching, squeezing, cutting or puncturing romex - bx is called armored for a reason.

shelly

[BobF]

My point was that people don't care if they damage the armor because they think it serves no electrical purpose. They wouldn't react the same to seeing the wires hanging out! And it's easier to disconnect the armor than the ground wire.

Yup, and they would then flip the breaker back on, and with the armor blown out, would energize the chassis with 120v.

[Doug Miller]

And *my* point is that people who know what they're doing understand what the armor is for; it's only people who are not familiar with the Code who think the armor serves no electrical purpose...

Don't blame the armor for that either. Blame an ass who flips a tripped breaker back on without finding out why it tripped first.

[Eric]

And *my* point is that people who know what they're doing understand what the armor is for; it's only people who are not familiar with the Code who think the armor serves no electrical purpose...

Don't blame the armor for that either. Blame an ass who flips a tripped breaker back on without finding out why it tripped first.

================= Those points are moot.

99.6% of the users of armoured cable are non-electrically trained people, and not "know what they are doing" though. Even electricians, as knowledgeable as they think they are, put breakers back on to find out why they tripped. That is a basic troubleshooting technique to start with, by almost all people. When it doesn't trip again we shrug and walk away, wondering.

[BobF]

You're assuming most people have the knowledge of electricians... the opposite is true. I once watched a guy wiring his barn with some industrial wire he bought. I told him he couldn't use the 'blue' wires because they were not in code, and he told me "It's my barn I'll wire it any way I want!" Pity the electrician who goes there later to fix it! I should have reported the idiot.

99% of the population!

[Doug Miller]

To the contrary, I assume that most people do *not* have that knowledge, specifically including *you*.

You were wrong.

The Code specifies that neutral must be white or gray; ground must be bare, green or green with a yellow stripe; and that those colors can be used for no other purposes. It makes no mention whatsoever of blue, black, red, orange, or any other colors, with respect to residential wiring. Unless he was using blue wire for ground or neutral, it's perfectly fine.

Why? Any electrician should be able to figure out that a blue wire is hot.

He was right, you were not. Who's the idiot?

[Scott Lurndal]

Good thing you didn't report him, you'd have looked the fool. So long as the current carrying conductors are not white or green, they're perfectly acceptable to the NEC in any residential setting.

scott

[BobF]

I only used the blue color as an example, he was using multi colored wires in a totally haphazard fashion, connecting blues to greens to oranges... whatever was convenient, and changing color mid-run is a code violation as far as I know. I don't think he connected any white wires in what I saw.

[BobF]

I should have told you I only used the blue color as an example, he was using a multi colored wire bundle in a totally haphazard fashion, connecting blues to greens to oranges... whatever was convenient, and changing color mid-run is a code violation as far as I know. I don't think he had any white wires in what I saw.

I didn't say he used it for hot, you jumped to an incorrect conclusion.

Unless it's ground.

I'd say you are... :)

Are you an electrician by the way?

[Doug Miller]

No, it's not. The Code doesn't specify *anything at all* about colors in residential wiring except: neutral = gray or white, ground = bare or green or green with a yellow tracer, and those colors can't be used for anything else.

There is no prohibition whatsoever against mixing colors, or using any colors you please.

[Doug Miller]

On 9/13/2011 8:41 PM, [e-mail] wrote: [...]

That *is* a violation.

"as far as [you] know" the Code doesn't seem to be very far. :-)

He didn't need any. Gray is acceptable for neutral.

You claimed that using a blue wire was a violation. It's not.

And if it's installed as such, that's a violation. But there's nothing at all wrong with using blue wires, your delusions to the contrary notwithstanding.

Why? Because I know the Code and you don't?

No. Never claimed to be, either. I don't need to ask you that question; I already know the answer.

[Martin Eastburn]

First, no matter what color is used, a professional or technical person should always test. There are always someone that wires something in with a wire they have.

And if you want to bet your life on another persons good or bad day then simply take care, you live on the edge.

Mart> On 9/13/2011 8:41 PM, [e-mail] wrote: > [...] >>

[BobF]

because you have no sense of humor... and you like side-stepping my questions.

Of course I'm not an electrician, I'm a technician, I have an IBEW card for my work in telecommunications.

[Doug Miller]

Surely the IBEW has some sort of classes you can take to learn something, anything, about the NEC so that you don't sound quite so silly when you discuss it...

[m II]

Only Dougy's code says these things.

"Not a workmanlike manner"

FAILED!

There is no prohibition whatsoever against mixing colors, or using any colors you please.

[BobF]

I have no reason to learn any more about the code then I know now. I don't do much elec. wiring other than in my own house, and I know enough for that. Anyway, I always take the safer route, and would look up anything I would need to know. Most of what I do know about code is what I got from the company electricians, who inspected any work I needed to do to keep the communications equipment running.

For now, lets just kill this useless thread and try to get along! This is after all a wood shop, not a utility room!