I've decided to replace my plastic-handled, low-to-medium quality chisels with some Lie-Nielson bevel edge socket chisels. I'll be using them mostly for cutting dovetails. I'm not sure if I want their regular sized ones or the long handled ones. Any opinions among those of you who've tried them?
Thanks, Dave
I bought the regular sized chisels. The handles are easy to change. You can order a long handle and try it out. The long handles are normally for paring a joint.
I have not tried the long handle chisels.
Another thought is to buy just one chisel with both handles and decide for yourself. The buy the rest of them.
Probably not what you want to hear, but socket chisels aren't really necessary for dovetail work, which involves considerably less whacking and more paring.
Any good bevel edged chisel with a long reach is dandy for paring and general work. Sockets, thick sections and square edges for the heavy stuff. One good thing, these won't be "equivalent" sizes, but real inch stuff to go with the rest of your tooling. Means a lot.
This really depends on how good you are with the saw... personally, I do next to no paring for dovetails. I use an L-N dovetail saw and the vast majority of the pins fit the tails coming right off the saw once the waste is chopped out. The only paring I ever do is after cutting the pins and before marking and cutting the tails--this is to straighten out the occassional pin that isn't quite right.
I prefer longer paring type chisels for chopping dovetail waste as I hold the chisels down low and by the blade rather than by the handle... it's a control thing. Also, once I establish a reference shoulder I whack the chisel pretty hard to chop the waste out. Chopping waste need not be a slow process.
For really fine dovetails in thin stock I took a 2 MM No 2 carving chisel I picked up when the local Woodcraft store went belly up last spring. I reshaped it into a regular chisel profile so I can chop the tail waste. Before that I used a small screw driver that I ground into a chisel. When you have pins little more than an 1/8" to 3/16" wide at the thick end there isn't much room for removing the waste from the tails!
John
SNIP> Probably not what you want to hear, but socket chisels aren't really
The LN chisels are not required to make dovetails, but they are a real joy to own and to use.
As far as a long reach paring chisel needed to make dove tails, I don't understand. I only use a bit of the end of the chisel and at most use about
3/4". IMO, the handle length is a matter of personal preference.
I don't with a router jig, either!
Hey, every time we discuss jigs someone jumps in with "cut them by hand", and so turnabout is fair play.
That said, a pal o' mine has the LN chisels and they really are nice! Not nice enough to ditch my current, perfectly usable chisels, but totally up to LN standards.
I'm with the camp that dosen't chop often, as I usually clean out waste on my hand cuts with a band saw or freehand trim router, depending on the dovetail type, and then simply pare to the final fit. I don't own a good hand saw. While some purists may not call that "hand cut", I don't care because I'm still laying them out by hand and freehanding all the tools. No jigs or mechanical guidance is involved, the machines simply save a few minutes.
An alternative to choping out dovetails with a chisel: Get a jewelers saw and fit it with a medium-fine scroll saw blade. Slide it down the kerf cut with the dovetail saw, then saw the cut at the bottom of the dovetail slot. Scoring the cut line with a marking knife will help guide the jewelers saw. A little chisel work may still be needed to make a sharp corner at the bottom of the slots.
As I said, I don't "chop" or "whack" a lot on dovetails. Bottom with the cope and pare _the bottom_ with the chisel to clean up from the set in the teeth. I also undercut a touch like Ol' Roy does. Better a gap than a bump.
Obviously I don't understand why they'd be needed either, if you read what I wrote. I like long reach on the _chisels_ for paring. Handle length ought to fit your hand.
I usually cut mine freehand with a bandsaw as well- while I do have a pretty nice dovetail saw, I'm one of those guys that learned to saw with a japanese pull-saw, and cutting on the push stroke feels wrong to me, so I usually just jump on the bandsaw. One day, I'll get a japanese dovetail saw, but there's always more desire than there is time or money.
No chopping on my part, either. I don't have LN chisels, but I do have some very nice Craftsman black-handled ones (yeah, I know- but they are good chisels, so the Sears bashers can just back off) that will do the job nicely with hand pressure and a little rocking back and forth to shave the sides and backs.
I call 'em hand-cut as well- I never attempt to get right to the line with the bandsaw, and all the tuning is hand chisel work, so I figure that's fair enough.
Just curiious about where (in what city) a Woodcraft stone went belly up? They all seem to do so well. Was it terribly mismanaged?
If you're going to use them for chopping waste out of the socket you might want to go with butt chisels - short stubby beveled sides chisels. Your going to have your left hand holding and positioning the chisel down at the wood and right hand swinging the mallet. A long handled, top heavy chisel will be harder to control when you're holding it at the other end with a two fingers and thumb grip.
charlie b
Latham, NY - Near Albany, Schenectady, Troy.
Here was a thread on it:
"The owner's cited being required to stock large quantities of slow moving merchandise, carving chisels and hardware in particular, and that tied up their cash. Another problem was that the slick, high profile location was expensive. They bled cash until they couldn't bleed any more... "
Does anyone know if that store had any sort of school attached?
The two Woodcraft stores near me would probably go under without a school, as well.
Why? So many don't know HOW to use higher-end tools and finishing materials. To the uneducated, all of the stuff looks like over priced foo-foo stuff. After class, you can tell what is and what's not.
We have access to fantastic learning opportunities taught by both talented and experienced locals and well-known author types. Personally, I can't believe the progress I've been able to make, as the hands-on classes have make book and 'wreck information totally make sense.
The owner of one of our local school runs fantastic classes that are top-notch experiences and NOT tool sales demos.
I can totally understand a higher-end tool store not making it without local training opportunities.
Two of many examples:
1.) Higher-end planes and chisels seem like over priced, over rated ripoffs, aimed at snoot pattoots, until you actually get to use one for a few hours under the eyes of an experienced craftsperson. In the same class, you are taught new methods of work and leave with the knowledge to keep your tools sharp and in tune. With a bit more solo practice, you realize that the foo-foo plane replaces expensive specialty jigs, genuinely saves time, and becomes a fantastic value, as it dovetails with your machines.2.) Finishing. We spend 80 hours building a piece, then we try to complete the part that the user actually sees and touches FIRST in 3 minutes. Spending 25-30 hours, over 8-9 evenings, with a guy or gal who does this stuff every day, and has for 20+ years is truly eye-opening and will so quickly improve our work that it's mind boggling.
Yes, they had a class room and ran classes regularly. The selection of classes was eclectic... They had classes on making guitars and classes on turning. I don't recall any flat-boarder classes but that could be faulty memory on my part.
One thing that may have actually worked against them is that there is a large and very active woodworking club in the area. It was started in the Schenectady area by a half dozen GE employees and has grown to nearly a
1,000 members. I'm the treasurer for the Mid-Hudson Chapter of Northeastern Woodworkers Association as well as for the turners SIG, Kaatskill Woodturners Association. We've got two shops, one in Stillwater and the other in Hurley and also use other locations for training. I'm not sure what the student count is per year for all the classes but I understand that most are filled to capacity.As a 501C3 educational corporation we subsidize the classes for members. A one day class typically costs $20 + materials. If we have in a big name non-member come in and teach the cost may be more, e.g, Garret Hack is on the schedule for a two day program this spring for $175 (sold out). Ernie Conover and Roy Underhill have also done programs. Woodcraft cannot compete with that....
As I mentioned previously, the product mix at Woodcraft doesn't fit my desires very well, but that's me. I'm sure there are a lot of carvers, turners, and others that find their mix just fine. I know guys in the club shopped at Woodcraft but many of them also complained about the prices and bought elsewhere.
John
Yup. It had classes on Sunday.
Yet, the more specialized your needs get, the less the price matters, so long as you get the item. The market they reach for at Woodcraft. The guy fixing the cabinet under the sink goes to Home Depot anyway.
Guy with displays and all-day sales people rather than picker/packer part-timers isn't really competitive with the mail-order crowd. Then there's the tax setup on inventory, the rent and upkeep, and who knows, maybe there are franchise qualifications to interfere with good business practices too. I remember how I used to have to wait for my local equipment dealer to get a commitment for a minimum order before I could get a certain power tool. Where a local club might have helped. "It's Makita month, all members get your requests in ...."
Seems like they missed a great opportunity for an alliance with the club.
On Jan 29, 10:35 pm, Joe Bleau wrote:
The Woodcraft in West Des Moines, Iowa went out of business 2-3 years ago. It was in operation for 2-3 years if I recall correctly. Metro area is about 400,000. Started/owned by two former Woodsmith Store employees. Des Moines is the home of the Woodsmith Store. Woodsmith Store is owned by August Home Publishing. August Home produces Shop Notes magazine, Woodsmith magazine, Workbench, a couple gareding magazines, and maybe some other stuff too. Woodsmith Store has been in operation for 20 years I think. New location a couple years ago. Big, big new store. Old store was sort of in the heart of town and not as easy to get to. Still had lots of space for lots of tools and such. Also in town are three different contractor tool stores. All carry the full range of Delta, Jet, Powermatic, etc. tools on the floor. And every power tool imaginable and then some. They do not carry the specialty woodworkign tools or turning tools that Woodcraft and Woodsmith Store carry. Also have three Menards, four Home Depot, and one Lowes in town. Woodcraft was in a strip mall in a good location. Not huge but enough space. They had more or less the full range of everything in the catalog. Including all of the small expensive non moving carving tools and turning tools quoted above. Offered hands on classes, which I took a couple of. There was just too much competition for them to survive. And the inventory costs as mentioned. And the fact the local woodworkers were already committed to the Woodsmith Store and bought their specialty woodworking items there. Internet for most power tools hurt Woodcraft store. Amazon, etc. Contractors buying power tools today went to the very well established Kel Welco, Puckett Tools, Bob's Tools. Which as mentioned carried far more hand held power tools than any woodworking store every did. And the same stationary power tools, or even more such as the big, big bandsaws. Quincy and Rol-Air compressors. And dozens of other compressors besides just Porter Cable red and DeWalt yellow. And dozens and dozens of air nailers. I suspect the owners were fed up with the way things were done at the Woodsmith Store where they worked and thought they could steal business away and do things their way. Their was not enough business to steal away from Woodsmith, or they could not steal much away. And could not steal any business from all of the other established places contractors shop. And the people who buy at Menards, Home Depot, Lowes go to the internet, not Woodcraft. And the high cost of inventory and employees and rental space in a decently placed strip mall. I don't know what business plan the owners had but anyone with an elementary education knew beforehand it was not going to work. The decision to open the Woodcraft was not based on anything financial, it had to have been all emotion. I enjoyed the store while it lasted. Don't get to Woodsmith Store much even though its very close to me and I go by it about every single day.
There's a Woodcraft store in the San Francisco east bay area, where I do some business on occasion. A Unisaw, a drill press, a dovetail jig, clamps, etc. At one time, it was a franchise, run by a fellow I know now, but did not know then. The headquarters was running it for a while, and now there are new franchise owners back in the saddle. They're pretty good about staying in contact with the woodworkers' clubs, running specials and classes and activities, but it's not at all easy to run these as profitable businesses. The first fellow is pretty happy now, too, I think. He's active in the turning community, and happier than if he were running retail seven days a week.
After spending as much as I have, on a hobby, you do tend to back away a little bit, if only to let the checkbook heal, or to find more room to put the tools when they're not in use. I can't tell if the overall market is down, but you DO have to find new customers every month.
By the way, I like my LN chisels, short handled from the factory. I might make a longer handle or three to see whether the changes are happy ones for me.
Patriarch
HomeOwnersHub website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.