Kitchen musings..... shelving vs. cabinets, notions of design....

( RCM-ers.... skip down to the alum. plate section) (RW peeple -- stop whining..... yeah, I know, it's not wood, it's anti-wood, deal with it)

Awl --

Since ahm fixin up m'shop, The Wife is REALLY bitching about her kitchen.... tit for tat, I spose.... no pun intended.... but an excellent pun, eh?? LOL

With a hypocrisy worthy of the basest politician, I'm going thru the HD kitchen design route (or at least the motions), mostly to get familiar with the "process" of "new kitchening", not necessarily to actually let them do it. My fillings are already hurting....

Inyway, sumpn is not right in KitchenDee-zineLand...... 'sall beautiful, 'sall archy-tecky, but sumpn is just not right.

Stunning as all this HGTV stuff is (more like culinary dick-waving), I'll bet that only 1 out of a 100 of these McMansion kitchens are actually used to do any real cooking. I'm betting that with alladat 1.25" granite all over the place, the shitty li'l brats run in and toaster-up their PopTarts, and everyone else is re-microwaving yesterday's KFC and pizza.....

Oh, and old news: alladisshit is SUPER expensive..... *gratuitously* expensive (and complicated), in my deezine opinion.

This notion solidified when I happened on, iirc, a NYTimes-ish profile of a big-dick chef and his SoHo-ish home/loft kitchen, where I was struck by just how non-archy-tecky it was, yet a thoroughly functional and very funky-attractive kitchen.... a REAL kitchen?? Nothing matched in it, none of this bullshit HGTV ""design"", altho he was blessed with very high ceilings (*at least* 12 ft, it seemed), and a goodly large space.

Dats when my inkling that HGTV was 99% fullashit changed to 100% fullashit. A conjob, actually, like pretty much everything else on TV.

The Q at hand is how to juggle wall space, ito cabinetry vs. open shelving. Attractive as all these kitch cabinets are, I just never found them to be all that practical, except for mebbe dust protection.

Recently I discovered these

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(or google Oggi, flip-lid canisters), which are really very attractive, and *visually useful* ito of retrieving foods, assessing quantities, etc. These further make the case for more open shelving In addition, many kitchen appliances are attractive in their own right, as can be the dinnerware itself, utensils, etc. Ceiling pot racks, imo, are Da Bomb.

So the Q is, How to apportion trad'l cabinetry, with open shelving?

I am in a semi-unique position in that I have a design for, and have actually built, shelving out of 1/4" alum plate, super-elegant, minimalist, functional, versatile, and strong. The soon-to-arrive Haas GR510 gantry mill will make this plate work much more do-able, as well. This style shelving (wall mounted or freestanding) also lends itself to being very elegantly enclosed, with hingeless doors that pivot on pins. These g-d European hinges drive me crazy.... just how complicated can shit get????

So I can actually make a "themed" kitchen of open/enclosed storage, in a variety of textures, from anodized to brushed to polished (SS-like) alum..

Has anyone grappled with this aspect of design, closed vs. open storage? Any web sites that deal with this, and the notion of "strategy"?

The problem with (traditional) kitchen design is that there are no do-overs -- you are essentially stuck with the whole shebang. One thing I learnt with all this granite bullshit is that what looks good in a showroom or sample book may not fare so well over time, when yer eyes are just SATURATED with these visually complex granite patterns, which actually become otically numbing after a while, and do a good job of HIDING dirt, spills, grease, etc.

I learned this by raiding the dumpster of my local granite guy, who allowed me to take substantial pieces of granite, silestone, marble, which I spread throughout the existing kitchen as trial countertops. We realized that you had to be *really* careful in your choices, and that most choices would be regretted. We realized that if going the granite et al route, a single color/pattern would become visually oppressive.

Thusly, I have also come up with a design of anodized alum plate countertops, covered by simple 1/4" beveled glass. Or, for that matter, butcherblock-type motif, covered by 1/4" glass. If the glass ever breaks, cracks, no biggie, go to the glass store. Really a lot of design potential there. And economy. Fuck Granite.

Lastly, ito enclosures (cabinets), there is the notion of see-through or translucence of the doors. The leaded-glass effect is very nice, and can also be facilitated in a gantry mill, in wood or in 1/4" alum plate.

The Q is how to sift thru all of this. Oh, yeah, a bit of a hard sell to the Wife.... LOL Thoughts, idears, experiences?

Reply to
Existential Angst
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Snicker... When I redid the kitchen in our 1974 home - took it down to bare floors and stud walls - we stopped at Big Orange to get some ideas (perchance to buy) on cabinetry and what was available, price, etc.

We were politely informed by the kitchen lady (who apparently had been transferred over to that department from the now-closed for the season garden shop) that before they could take an order, THEIR "specialist" would have to come out and measure the kitchen to "insure you have the proper measurements and are ordering the right cabinets"

I still wanted to see what the brands out there had to offer so I played along since we were already in the store. Sitting down with her and her catalogs and magic computer (that's how they make them experts, you know

- a computer program that will amaze/amuse even a kindergartner)it quickly became apparent from her "deer in the headlights" look every time I asked a question that she had, indeed, come in from the garden center where she was more comfortable with plants since her IQ matched theirs.

After about the fifth, "Er, ah..." we got up and left basically telling her there was no way in hell we had any confidence in their product knowledge and would be buying elsewhere... and did.

This is the easy question, EZ. Haven't you seen that t-shirt? "If Momma Ain't Happy, Ain't Nobody Happy!"

Don't sell her, let her take the lead and you just nod your head and follow along. If nothing else, you'll have the satisfaction of saying "I tried to tell you..." as she blames you for the problems with her new kitchen.

Reply to
Unquestionably Confused

U=13572526&RN=204 (or google

I would visit as many kitchen design shops as you can that are available in your area. They typically have various styles and systems on display. HD used to have their Expo design center locations that had a lot of kitchens on display with higher end stuff you don't see in their regular stores, but they closed them.

Also, going to open houses for homes that would have the class of kitchen you are looking at is a good idea. Today you can also see those houses online at the realtor websites. They almost always show the kitchens. That alone could give you ideas and if they have an open house, you could go see it too.

On the open shelving versus closed cabinets, a big factor is who is using the kitchen and if they are neat, disciplined, etc. Some open shelves with nice attractive containers like those in your link can look cool. But if you use those to just toss in random stuff, then it's going to look like hell without a door.

It all comes down to what's important to you and how much you want to spend. To some, functionality is more important than looks. To others, they want a balance. Some are concerned about resale and others intend to stay there for 50 years so it doesn't matter.

Reply to
trader4

Angst,

I'd not use shelves in a kitchen. Kitchen air has lots of dust and grease in it. Put things in cabinets and drawers to keep them clean. Expect to clean the cabinet surfaces fairly often, so stay away from ornate cabinets. No opinion on stone countertops.

Reply to
David L. Martel

Logically, open for stuff that is used with great frequency, cabinets - or a pantry - for the rest.

Undeniably, glass can be attractive. Also indeniably, it seems to be a magnet for grease, streaks, dust and assorted crud.

My own feeling re a kitchen - or any workspace - are that it should minimize the effort to use it. That means thought about where things are placed and the amount of space between them. It also means easy accessibility to the tools.

How many people will be working in it at the same time? If just one, you need about 36" minimum for aisles; 42" is better, more than 48" and you are wasting space. If more than one, I would think 60" or a bit more would be about right.

The things that are used in a particular area need to be convenient to that area; eg, pots/pans/skillets should be accesible to the stove area, not require traipsing across the kitchen to get one. Dish cabinets should be very near the sink or diswasher. I know that seems fundamental but I've seen many instances of it not being considered.

Again personally, I don't like frame and panel cabinet doors in a kitchen for the same reason I wouldn't like glass...the edges attract crud and are hard to clean. When I built ours I made full overlay, solid wood doors. The edges are rounded but no other profiles to catch dust.

Getting back to open shelves vs cabinets, I think a lot would depend upon the people involved; if they are willing to dust/clean very frequently, open shelves could be nice; if not - we are not - I would eschew them in favor of cabinets.

I'm pretty much with you on the granite but not with glass on top of something else. My only experience with same was a glass covered dining table in a rented apartment when we were living in Mexico. It was a pain...any spilled liguid wicked underneath; assorted crumbs and crud managed to find a way under.

BTW & FWIW, your posts would be more readable without the folksy spellings.

Reply to
dadiOH

Some people are serious about their kitchens, including renters:

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Not great pubicity for Ikea.... LOL

Reply to
Existential Angst

Hear, hear on the closed storage in a kitchen. and simple surfaces. Glass doors allow both the cleaning AND the contents' views.

Stay away from stainless steel appliances - TOO DIFFICULT TO KEEP CLEAN LOOKING.

Of the countertops we've lived with:

  1. painted = NO WAY!
  2. glass over painted - irritating deterioration occurs UNDER the glass and don't sit anything really heavy or hot on it. Nice to be able to put ANY paper patterning under the glass. However, the effect we had looked cheap, amateur do-it-yourself looking.
  3. formica - NO WAY! chemicals EAT right through the tops of formica turning to white ANY color pattern and worse turning the surfaces into mush, bleach will do this to formica.
  4. tile - NO WAY! all those little cracks [grouting] to keep clean! plus hairline cracks let liquid right through
  5. stone - presently have patterned granite WOW! best surface EVER! Kitchen always looks great, for example, the crumbs from slicing a loaf of bread you can't even see them! [yes, one is stuck with the pattern]

Note on the color of a counter top: presently the countertops are a little darker than I like. I learned a long time ago that to make work on a top easier keep the color light. The darker the countertop, the more difficult it is to see what you're working on.

Reply to
Robert Macy

Nothing could be easier ... a spritz of WD40, and a paper towel, will generally make a SS appliance look like brand new.

Reply to
Swingman

Except for Elegant that could describe a submarine's galley.

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Reply to
Jim Wilkins

SNIP Awl --

Since ahm fixin up m'shop, The Wife is REALLY bitching about her kitchen.... tit for tat, I spose.... no pun intended.... but an excellent pun, eh?? LOL

Wife designed our house layout. Great.Since we moved in I had to change the following to her liking. Close off one kitchen door. Move cabinets and add more cabinets. Then lower cabinets so she could reach things better. Move front door entry closet and close off another door. This involved moving some of the hot water heat base board tubes. Adding Drawers and enclosed shelving in entry way to attached garage. Make a TV and audio electronic cabinet. Built a custom computer table. Good thing I like to do these things. Some day I MAY get to fixing up my shop. WW

Reply to
WW

clipped

I had one kitchen that was quite large but had very little cabinet space. I was also buying antiques at the time and had a 50" round oak table, a bakers cabinet (sans flour sifter) with bin drawers and a pie safe. I used decorated tins for storing food stuff; they were cheap and sturdy. Glass cannisters (Walmart still carries the same style), and glass jars with plastic seals for stuff like beans, rice. Food makes a decent display theme and I like stuff at hand. That said, I would never use open shelves in a kitchen unless it was for something used daily...too dusty and greasy.

I've never been a fan of granite...good old practical Formica is fine. One mistake, in choosing a stone-pattern Formica was that it was hard to tell when there were crumbs on it. Good disguise :o)

Anodized alum would probably scratch. Glass would be insane for countertops. Out of necessity, we used it for backsplash above our cooktop and I loved it...pressed pattern glass with the smooth side out was super easy to clean, and solid laminate behind it. Could put any pattern of laminate or ?wallpaper, or colored glass. No tile grout for me. The backsplash was sealed all around so no gunk or steam behind it...

I have suddenly, in my old age, craved simplicity...not a lot of decoration, smooth front cabinets that are easy to clean and DURABLE. My cupboards are never arranged so I would want the contents visible. If I had elegant dishes and glassware, and loads of space, maybe.

A lot depends on how you use the kitchen...cook three meals a day for a family, eat out a lot, gourmet cooking, entertain a lot and want the company in kitchen whilst cooking?

My present kitchen is small but very well organized and easy to work in. I have crocks on the counter for utensils and measuring spoons and stuff. Corner lazy susan is a must. Window above sink, very bright during day but lousy lighting at night...hate cfl bulbs.

Reply to
Norminn

Our kitchen counters are all tile. If we're holding a hot pot and we say "I need to put this thing down NOW!!! WTF can I put this thing?" the answer is always "anywhere that's flat". And I mean anywhere in the whole kitchen, because the whole kitchen counter is tile.

You cannot imagine the convenience of that until you've lived it. That's one thing that stone would give you. I'd suggest that if you use glass, use tempered glass and test a sheet of it with a pot roast fresh from the oven. I would be suspicious of aluminum -- it'd spread the heat both down into the underlying glue and across the counter to whatever is close by (like, say, your hand).

The tile is patterned, but it's much less aggressive than granite, and it's light colored. It's also textured, which is a pain if you're kneading bread -- marble would solve that problem, though, and still provide the "everywhere is a hot pad" goodness.

Reply to
Tim Wescott

i used granite tiles set abutting. grout is a minimal 1/16" or less.

i wouldn't use tempered glass, unless it was 1" thick or more. at that thickness, you're looking at granite costs and weight.

Reply to
chaniarts

No kidding. I couldn't get through all the cute spellings, the almost urban street slang, and ghetto speak to finish the post. Not sure what this guy wants, but it isn't interesting enough to read through all that crap.

I got this far because I saw that you and Karl responded....

Robert

Reply to
nailshooter41

In the winter I cook on the woodstove in the shop. "anywhere that's flat" for hot pans is the milling machine table.

Reply to
Jim Wilkins

No kidding. I couldn't get through all the cute spellings, the almost urban street slang, and ghetto speak to finish the post. Not sure what this guy wants, but it isn't interesting enough to read through all that crap. =================================================

Lessee..... by your own admission, you didn't get thru it all, yer too stupid to figger out "what I want", and yet somehow you know it's not inneresting enough to read..... Typical non-sequitur of the bitchily ignerint....

Oh, yeah, of course.... here ya go:

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Study hard.

Reply to
Existential Angst

You too?? Jeez......

Reply to
Existential Angst

Did try to reply with some information you might be able to use, but I gave up also ... simply too hard to follow.

Skimmed it as best I could, but I have to say it was indeed hard to get to the pith of your intent.

Reply to
Swingman

WTF? Do you want people to respond or waste time trying to deciper what the f*ck you're asking? Post your ? *clearly* without the BS and attitude. Pretty simple concept to me.

Reply to
ChairMan

Near as I could figure, the question concerned: "Wall space: Shelves versus drawers". I went back to the post 3 times, and never honestly made it all the way to the end--but its time we get to the bottom of it! I restricted my reply to rec.woodworking.

Bill

Reply to
Bill

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