Karl - you may lose me to the Dark Side

[nailshooter41]

As we did last Christmas, we spoke of the fact that us better carpenters/woodworkers/installers cope our inside joints as needed to cover out of square joints in trim of all sorts. And we agree that never is it more important than doing this on crown molding.

But I just finished up the kitchen I told you about, and put the typical 2 1/2" crown around the cabinets. I don't think I have ever used a harder wood. It was marked as maple on the unfinished side, but should have been marked aircraft grade aluminum. I got the joints where I wanted them, but the inside corners took me right at 30 minutes to cope and fit! Each! An hour for two joints!

Usually I knock these out in about 15 minutes or so (each)to fit to my spec, including the cope and final fit with my large stockman. My usual gear:

top it off, check the joint out over this cabinet door. You can see the difference in the profile. (Don't look at the shadows above the trim - I put the joint on a low joist so I wouldn't have that much problem fitting it.) The different dimension of the profile made it even more fun than it should have been.

this were red oak, birch, regular maple, that nasty pre-primed finger jointed catalpa or any other softer woods it wouldn't have been a problem. But next time I might join your boys and check out an inside corner cut on the miter saw before I get going on the trims, depending on what my clients are paying for when we discuss terms.

The last time I used trim this hard was when I built a set of barrister's book cases and put a little removable dimensional piece that sat on the very top unit like a hat. I trimmed out the hat piece with white oak crown moulding to match the white oak cabinets and got the bright idea it should be kiln dried to keep the joints from moving when secured. After making the profiling cut on the miter saw, I wound up cutting most of the material away with a belt sander as I ran out of patience and time removing that white oak with a coping saw.

Have you run into any of this trim? Is THIS why your guys don't want to cope the inside corners? With another couple of kitchens on the horizon I know I will have to cut this stuff myself to make sure I like the finished product and will have to make sure I price accordingly.

I am hearing the dark side of mitered inside corners calling to me....

Robert

P.S.: Loved the chairs. With your design and execution and Linda's finish strokes, they are gorgeous.

[Dave]

On Tue, 29 Jan 2013 01:17:37 -0800 (PST), " [e-mail]"

Maybe it was just one of those projects where whatever you do to it, it just doesn't fit right. Something bothering me, a little hung over from the night before, or that meal I ate didn't sit right. Whatever the reason, most of us have worked on something that was a bear to build.

[Swingman]

As you well know, easier said than done ... do it yourself (not likely at my age in a kitchen) or leave the site ... then it's inside miters, hoping you won't notice.

Wabbut, you 2 cheep ... espring for new coping bwade!

Bubba ... you available for coping seminars!? ;)

That looks spot on, however long it takes ... them's es spensive looking, bragging copes!

> If this were red oak, birch, regular maple, that nasty pre-primed

Do seem milling ain't what it used to be, crown in particular.

Here lately, not only do I occasionally get slight differences in width of crown from one end to the other, but slight differences in thickness, both of which will make you pull you hair out.

It's why I'm particular where I buy small orders (8 to 30lf) of crown for a kitchen/furniture project and insist on picking it out myself ... good work if you can get it, but often these guys don't have the farking spec'ed profile.

Locally, suppliers like Boise Cascade (large selection of hard to find profiles "on the shelf"), you pick out the profile/LF, pay for it, and their employee's deliver it to you in the parking lot, by farking fork lift ... guaranteed Caveat Emptor.

You jus too es spensive, Wabbut! :)

Thanks ...

[Leon]

> To top it off, check the joint out over this cabinet door. You can

> If this were red oak, birch, regular maple, that nasty pre-primed

Here duh saluit'shen

[-MIKE-]

I looked through that whole page and didn't see the coping function. :-)

[nailshooter41]

Another reason to do it myself. But... seriously... I didn't think it would take that long to do.

But Karl, this blade still had teeth! I hadn't even sharpened it with my Dremel yet, so I thought it was OK. Smart guy. ;^)

Well, they would be, except that had one of my guys been doing that and he got TWO inside miters done in an hour I would have burned him alive. As it is, I am glad I spent the time to get the joints right, but not happy I had to spend the time.

I worry more about the profile matching. As far as thickness goes, I never, ever cut scarf joints on 45 degrees. I always cut on 30 (even on roof fascia!), no one knows the difference as they can see it is mitered, and you can push one side of the joint in or out and nail it to match the profile if it is a thickness issue. They must have rubber wheels or something like that on their moulding machines to press the profiles onto the cutters regardless of thickness to keep the profile the same with a different thickness of material. But the profile problems.... I got nothing. >> Particularly > I am hearing the dark side of mitered inside corners calling to me....

OK Joe, but one time good price no more! Nest time, you pay more!

Robert

[nailshooter41]

$1400 bucks!! And still doesn't solve the inside miter problems.

I know that was tongue in cheek, but at that price I would want to be able to leave the saw on the job by itself, go check on another job, and come back to a finished trim job that the saw did by itself.

I am still using my old DeWalt 10" single bevel that I have had for 15 or so years. When I got it, I took the whole saw carriage apart and tuned it up with a machinist's square. I had to actually whack the base with a mallet to bend it to tolerance, but it has held it for all these years. I use a heavy, thick 60 tooth blade (no skinny minnies for me - they flex in knots or burls) and that saw cuts like a dream.

I think I paid $199 for that saw and it came with a worthless blade that I put into a jobsite disposable table saw used for utility work and a "miter saw" blade coupon that you used when you mailed in your registration to get a free saw blade. It was a POS, too. The PCs, Makitas, and other brands of single bevels were about $50 less then, but this one has been well worth it.

At $1400+, I honestly would be afraid to take the Festool out to the job.

Robert

[Leon]

Actually If I were to ever buy another I would probably go with the Bosch with the articulating arm, no more rails. And about half the price of the Festool.

[woodchucker]

I looked at the Bosch, since I destroyed my Makita, A lot of people complain about the saw not tracking straight, so for the price it should. I keep reading about the saw twisting slightly as it is pulled out. Maybe it's an adjustment, but there are too many complaints about it. I wanted it for the zero clearance behind it.

The kapex is looking good.

[Leon]

Good to know. I am not on the market but this particular saw is intriguing..

[Mike M]

Construction Definitions

Contractor: A gambler who never gets to shuffle, cut or deal.

Bid: A wild guess carried to two decimal places.

Low Bidder: A contractor who is wondering what he left out.

Engineer's Estimate: The cost of construction in heaven.

WAG Factor: Wild Ass Guess

SWAG Factor: Scientific Wild Ass Guess. A much more precise procedure.

Project Manager: The conductor of an orchestra in which every musician is in a different union.

Critical Path Method: A management technique for losing your shirt under perfect control.

OSHA: A protective coating made by half baking a mixture of fine print, split hairs, ret tape, and baloney. Usually applied at random with a shotgun.

Delayed Payment: A tourniquet applied at the pocket.

Completion Date: The point at which liquidated damages begin.

Strike: An effort to increase egg production by strangling the chicken.

Liquidated Damages: A penalty for failing to achieve the impossible.

Auditor: People who go in after the war is lost and bayonet the wounded.

Lawyer: People who go in after the auditors and strip the bodies.

Mike M

[Swingman]

I may be looking at it myself. My Makita barely survived the last couple of siding jobs, and is not operating as smoothly after being forced/slammed through a few thousand siding cuts ... insisted only my foreman operate it, but he turns out as heavy handed as the other guys when it comes to tools, and always complaining about having to replace tools because of rough handling ... hell, it's him.

When I say "never again", "never" obviously has its limits when it comes to getting the job done, but were I to spring for a Kapex, I can guarantee it will never see a job site.

[Pat Barber]

I still like the old school guys and your work still looks pretty damn good.

It's really too bad that the young crowd doesn't want to learn how to do this stuff.

[nailshooter41]

Nothing like seeing someone that doesn't buy their own tools and uses yours in a rough manner because they "want to get the job done" and they declare "if it's a working tool, it should be able to take it" and all that other crap. I have a couple of tools, my favorite Makita circular saw that I use to cut down plywood sheeting and the aforementioned miter saw that are off limits to my ninja warriors. They are not allowed to use them. Period.

I have to ask, though... why were you using a miter saw on a siding (assuming Hardie as we spoke of at Christmas) job? Or was it wood horizontal lap or masonite?

I have knothead grade tools that my guys can use until they kill them. But if I see them using them in a rough way, they buy their own or they are fired. Between stolen and abused tools, I have put hardware into half of my city's hands.

Robert

[Lee Michaels]

"Swingman" wrote

Spoken like a true tool aristocrat. "I ain't gonna let no ham fisted neanderthal TOUCH my precious Festool!"

[Swingman]

Momma didn't raise no fools, Bubba ... and, I try not to learn the hard way. :)

I absolutely insist that a miter saw, and a Bosch cementboard blade, be used when cutting Hardie _ColorPlus_ siding.

It is waaaaay too easy to scuff this es spensive stuff, and not always easy to match the color with touch-up paint (actually, impossible with Hardie's own touch-up paint, and a much better chance with letting Sherwin Williams match it, but still not a shoe in depending upon color.)

Let's put it this way ... I could buy a couple of Festool Kapex's + with what it would cost me to custom repaint the entire exterior of a house to placate a siding customer as picky as I am. :)

With the primed Hardie, a circular saw is just fine (although I insist it be cut with a square as a guide, or a jig)

[nailshooter41]

Geez Karl... I learn everything the hard way. Not on purpose, that just seems to be my method.

Got away from cutting anything but trim with a saw when I was doing a couple of houses and the neighbors complained about dust. I actually had to pay a professional gardener to clean up a lady's garden as I had coated the whole thing in thick dust. My bad.

Bought a shear years ago, (yes, you can use a speed square as a guide) and have never looked back.

Plus, reading about the silica the saw blades throw into the air that will no doubt get around a dust mask is scary. I can cause a direct relative of mesothelioma to occur.

When installing the pre painted stuff, I put the siding face up until I use it, then put it face down a bath towel padding on the saw horse and the cutting action of the tool doesn't scuff up the finished face.

I only use a saw for trims or for complicated or pocket cuts and insist on N95 or better dust masks.

Just sayin'....

Robert

[Swingman]

Have tried both PC and PAC shears, but never had much luck maintaining the crisp butt cut a miter saw will deliver, as well as the accuracy, particularly bad cutting from the underside on the ColorPlus ... plus we can line up more than one cut at a time with the miter saw.

Jobs just seem to go quicker with a saw blade. Maybe if Festool got in the shear game, Leon could give them a try and hook me, again, on something else. ;)

[nailshooter41]

I would be surprised if you didn't hear my guffaw from there.

Nice shot!

Robert

[Leon]

McFeeley has'em too.