Isn't relying of someone else's plans kinda like painting by paint by numbers?

[Bay Area Dave]

Ben, funny you began your post with "narrow and egocentric" view. I used somewhat the same description of myself earlier. I hope you realize that I crafted the OP to be provocative. I expecting to be flamed, actually, but thankfully everyone that has responded has done a superb job of detailing that plans are useful in many ways.

Yup, I am mixing (in my thinking) woodworking with design, as relates to woodworking as a hobby. That's why I was looking for comments on the practice of using plans. From many of the replies I can now see that a plan can be like a recipe that you spice up. a starting point. well engineered joinery. I'm getting it, man, I'm GETTING it!

Yes, I know I sounded self-righteous. I expected that response. I was playing devil's advocate in order to prompt discussion. The tone I took was " I don't get it. why are you guys doing this? doesn't make sense to me. plans aren't needed. why spend money on them?" Now I've gotten a more clear understanding of the value of using a plan, or maybe just culling some ideas from one, to incorporate into our own creation, thereby saving time, using proper joinery, or adding design elements that otherwise would have been lacking, or misproportioned.

My biggest liability is a lack of imagination. I'm more of a problem solver; doing is easier for me than envisioning. Once I finally get a "plan" in my head, I rest easy, knowing that building the thing is the easier part. Not that it's always so easy, but I'm talking relatively, here. I procrastinate at the beginning stages, thinking of what should 'it' look like, what materials should 'it' be made of, what size is 'it' gonna be, what finish should I use. I don't want to start a project and then realize well into it that it's not gonna "work". So I agonize over my plan before I cut the first boards.

and to answer your question about what I'm amazed people ask for plans for: a sled. I gave my .02 to a recent thread on sleds, and I believe that the OP understood my response that HIS sled needs to be dimensioned for HIS needs, rather than a one size fits all strategy. I wasn't trying to be either rude or unhelpful; quite the contrary, sometimes it's good to push someone to think a little more about the reason for building a shop aid, such as a TS sled, BEFORE they blindly follow someone else's design. When they ask how big it should be, wouldn't you tell them to think about what they plan on cutting with it?

I'm not sure it doesn't take some skill to paint by numbers. My attempts at it as I child were atrocious. The final result always looked like hell! :)

dave

Ben Siders wrote:

[Bay Area Dave]

point taken, Jim. I'm a believer! I've seen the light! (seriously) I'm not being facetious.

dave

Jeepnste> I always enjoy reading over a set of plans. From my point of view they are

[Ben Siders]

I wasn't flaming or attacking, just letting you know how your question came across to me.

Are you trying to claim that somebody on a newsgroup learned something by reading it? Impossible! :)

Plus some of us just don't know how to build something without some step-by-step instructions. I followed a plan to build my work bench but using that knowledge, I was able to draft my own plans for an assembly table and put it together without assistance. Plans can be a learning tool. I didn't learn calculus by sitting down deriving the Fundamental Theorom on my own. Isaac Newton did that and somebody else taught me, step by step, how to use it.

I wouldn't know how to build a sled. :) I'd go get plans, adjust the measurements, but otherwise basically follow them.

Yeah, I agree with you here for sure. When I wanted to build my workbench, I found four or five sets of plans. One just used 2x6's for the surface and I didn't like that. For one, they're never straight and for two, there'll be cracks in them that dust and crap will fall into. I kept shopping around until I found something closer to what I wanted, and even then I changed the height of it to fit my physical size.

Yeah, same here, but my point was that the paint-by-numbers analogy isn't very good. You hit on this earlier, but basically it comes to knowing how to build something and knowing how to design something. I could make a design for a bookcase that looks great, build it, put four books on it and have the shelves collapse because I used the wrong kind of joint, wrong kind of wood, or any other number of things that goes wrong. You may have the know-how to avoid those kinds of mistakes, but not everybody does. I almost built my workbench out of yellow pine until somebody told me to use a less brittle wood. I didn't know pine was brittle, I'm just starting out.

[Grandpa]

[Bay Area Dave]

Yup! I sure do! please read my other responses...

dave

Grandpa wrote:

[Bay Area Dave]

To all who responded:

I appreciate your thoughtful responses. Truly. I sort of thought my opinion on the subject was askew; you've all helped to make me less reticent to search for plans for my next project; an oak desk to replace a metal Hon desk in my study. It can't be very big, and I'm over 6 feet, so it'll have to be a bit higher than normal. See, I'm already thinking of modifications! :)

dave

[Rico]

I have never built directly from others plans but look at a lot of them and have learned a lot that way. However, if I ever did run across a plan that was exactly what I wanted, I wouldn't hesitate to use it.

That said, I usually do work from plans, my own CADD plans. Not a lot of detail, but the sizes, joint design and cut sheets get worked out ahead.

The important thing is the the individual hobbyist is doing what they want and getting satisfaction out of it.

Rico

[John McCoy]

Bay Area Dave wrote in news:qqf1b.211$id.19008623 @newssvr21.news.prodigy.com:

I think most people ask for plans because they're not experts (you, I gather, have reached a certain level of expertise). Folk starting into something new look for guidance on what proportions will work, on what joints are appropriate for a given situation, even for how to make a joint that they haven't previously made. As you gain more experience, first you take existing plans and adapt them, as you learn where you can change dimensions without resulting in ugly proportions or weak construction; with further experience you can design from scratch.

To take your painting example, many of the old masters of the renaissance learned by painting over another master's work. They weren't born with an inate grasp of color & perspective, they learned it. Would you condemn their later work because they started with "paint by numbers"?

John

[Bay Area Dave]

Rico,

you are absolutely right on. Everyone has his (or her) special reason for indulging in this hobby. One of my reasons is that it's fun to fabricate things. That's why I especially like working on the router table. The flip side is I get bored if I have to make too many of the same things. I'm not yet into Neandering, but I might dabble in it later on. I don't have any Neander tools yet, unless you count one very lousy Crapsman chisel I picked up over 25 years ago.

I use Excel to help with measurements related to dados and rabbets. I don't own a CADD program, but I can imagine how helpful that must be.

dave

Rico wrote: snip

[Bay Area Dave]

John,

No I haven't reached very far up the ladder of expertise. I'm new to building cabinets. I DID do them without using anyone's plans, but that's only after a lot of thought, using Excel to get the dimensions right, and thinking about what I wanted. My workbench and cabinets are simple affairs; had I a complex project, my limited ideas would fail me and I'd need much assistance.

I wasn't condemning anyone for painting by numbers. It was the first thing I thought of as an analogy. It's been pointed out by several folks that it was a poor one. I used it in the mistaken belief that following along with a plan offered no creativity or sense of accomplishment. That was my mistaken idea. I get it now.

Let me share something: Years ago I built a 25" TV, and o'scope, and a couple of other electronic testers. I didn't feel a whole lot of sense of accomplishment because they were all kits. I followed page after page of detailed instructions in order to build those things. So I related that feeling of lack of accomplishment to the use of plans while woodworking. Instead of mentioning the kit building, I thought of paint by numbers first...

Also I recognize that everyone has their own skill set. I was wondering out loud if the need to follow plans was due to a lack of 3D thinking. That's not a character flaw. Now I see that the "need" is not usually a "need"; but a convenience, a tool. As I've mentioned to other posters this morning, I have seen the error in my thinking!

and thank you for contributing to this very interesting thread.

dave

John McCoy wrote: snip

[David Hall]

Seems to me that most of those folks we call musicians play music written by someone else, even the words they sing are usually by someone else. The result may be termed their "interpretation" of the song, but it is them playing and/or singing someone elses song. They still win the Grammy, though don't they? All of the best cooks I have ever known had recipe books in their kitchens. They may have made some modifications to suit their own or their family's tastes, but they used the recipe books. They still received the accolades when everybody was sitting around with their belts loosened after a good meal. A plan is nothing more than a recipe or a song. It is nice if you are a person who can and enjoys the developement of the plan or the recipe or the song, but the person who makes the item, sings the song or cooks the meal gets the ultimate acknowledgement. Please don't denigrate the skills and artistry of the woodworker who uses a plan any more than you would the grammy winning singer or the best "mom" who ever cooked a meal for you.

Dave Hall Who uses plans at least as often as not (if not more so)

[David Hall]

So, I assume that you have that forge all fired up to make the hinges for your next cabinet? (you can see those usually, you know). How about that glass furnace for making the glass panels on that curio cabinet for the living room? Somehow I have failed by not mining and smelting the copper for the punched copper panels on that pie safe I made for my MIL. I do assume that you grow, cut and mill all of your lumber, don't you???? Man, what an ego. Why do you feel the need to denigrate your neighbor because he enjoyed something a little differently than you might have? I will never be David Marks (I doubt that you will either), but I can enjoy the hobby any way I please, whether I make masterpieces of cabinetry fit for a museum entirly from my own (over active) imagination or just make some little wooden cars for my grandsons. Either way, I should be able to have satisfaction and, indeed, pride, in my efforts without someone like you trying to piss in my wheaties just for your own ego stroking.

Dave Hall

[Bay Area Dave]

David, David, David! You are getting your panties in a bunch for nothing. I didn't denigrate my neighbor. I was TRYING to relay the fact here (not to his face) that he hadn't really BUILT the object he was showing off, other than the carcass. So the visible quality, materials, effort, and form wasn't his. Do you get MY point? If he had said "I assembled this from parts", I'd have no quarrel with that statement. Otherwise he exhibited misplaced pride. Are you following me now, Dave?

dave

David Hall wrote:

[Leon]

With that question, perhaps now you can understand why some people wondered why a woodworker would buy a router cabinet rather than build one... ;~)

I built 2 but bought my last one...

[Leon]

I'll second that... It was easy to tell that someone was trying unsuccessfully to redo a Fleetwood Mac song. And also entertainers are for entertainment, absolutely not a source of usable or credible information.

[Leon]

Some of us Yanks would total about 5 or 6.

[Leon]

I'll put it on APBW

[Teej]

I`m new to woodworking but most of all I enjoy buying woodworking magazines and reading them before work and at lunch time. I`m good at my trade (which isn`t woodworking). I`m glad woodworking tradesmen don`t need plans.They just need to be more understanding,to some this is a hobbie. If somebodies that good at designing and planning then sell them to the ones who buy them. And get over it=)

[Jack-of-all-trades - JOAT]

Fri, Aug 22, 2003, 2:38pm (EDT+4) [e-mail] (Bay=A0Area=A0Dave) puts out: Why JOAT, have I elicited your longest ever post?

Probably not. But I didn't have anything better to do at the time.

ok...TS sled is ONE example...

I thought you were talking about unsual plans.

Happy plans to you! :)

I've been in the shop, making a chute for my paper shredder. Waiting for the glue to dry, so I can continue. No plans, no sketches, just a few measurements. All out of my head, and using left-over pieces of wood (I don't have scrap wood, just smaller, and smaller pieces, till it either gets used, or is sawdust). Plans? Plans? Don' need no steenkin' plans.

But, should I paint it yellow, when I'm done? Yeah, probably.

JOAT If we're all God's children, what's so special about Jesus?

Life just ain't life without good music. - JOAT Web Page Update 20 Aug 2003. Some tunes I like.

[Groggy]

Love it! It turns my stomach when these idiots become experts on issues because it gets them in front of the camera. .

Greg