Isn't relying of someone else's plans kinda like painting by paint by numbers?

[Bay Area Dave]

Everyone keeps asking for plans, plans, plans. Doesn't anybody have a clue of what THEY want to make, rather than copying someone else's ideas? I'm constantly amazed at the things people ask for plans for. They even PAY for plans! The fun in building something for me is coming up with a design, and then implementing it. If I said I was as painter, I sure as heck wouldn't get a paint by numbers kit and just paint within the lines. That's NOT a hobby. OR is it?? Am I all wet?? Do I have the wrong idea about what woodworking is about?

This little rant is designed NOT to hurt anyone's feelings: I JUST WANT TO START A DIALOG ON THE SUBJECT, AS I JUST DON'T GET IT!

Perhaps the reason that people need plans is they can't think in three dimensions?? Is that it?

Dave

[Michael Baglio]

Yes. Think "gray." Not everything is Black and White. See below.

No, but, (to use your analogy), you do have a tendency to assume that Rembrandt and Picasso were born masters of their art. They weren't. They had to be taught, they studied and copied others' work in order to learn their craft before they developed their own artistic style.

Buying and making from plans is a valid way of "learning the craft." The "art of creation" comes after.

Very, _very_ few people are born with the talent to do anything at a level of mastery. So as romantic as the notion sounds-- that wood workers here should just build what they want to-- it isn't very practical. The worst you get by winging it is a horrible mess of both materials and wasted time, and the very best you can hope for by just "seeing what happens if I try THIS(!!!)" is something that _might_ pass as....

...."studio furniture." ;>

M2c, ymmv, etc... Michael Baglio Chapel Hill

[Lazarus Long]

point for your own creation.

The most satisfying thing I've built is one completely dreamt up by me, two pairs of sliding shoji screens for use as a window treatment.

[Bay Area Dave]

Thanks to Ed, Micheal and Jester99

So what you have all said is that looking at plans will spark an idea, like looking up reference material in a book or magazine article. That's something I can relate to as I have a few books on woodworking, finishing, etc.

You don't just pin a plan to the wall and go from step A to Z, and after completing that project, secure another plan and follow it to the letter also. You adapt and decide what elements would work for your project. You borrow ideas. That's useful and instructional. Conceptualizing a project is sometimes a lengthy process for me. The "doing" is usually the easier part of the process (for ME).

It IS more fun though, for me to do an entire project "by myself". One of my neighbors tinkers with lots of different projects in his garage. Recently he showed off a corner cabinet he built for a bedroom tv. His obvious pride when he showed me the finished project struck me as odd, as he began telling me how he had to buy the drawer fronts and doors. He built the carcass, but what shows are the components that he bought. I didn't want to burst his bubble but when I left, I spoke with my wife about how he feels like he built the whole thing. I vowed that if I showed someone a cabinet I'd built, that I wouldn't say that I built it myself, if the visible parts were purchased, rather than crafted.

Again, thanks guys, for the insights.

dave

Bay Area Dave wrote:

[Bay Area Dave]

Laz,

What's a shoji screen, if I may ask?

dave

Lazarus L> >

[Dave Balderstone]

People want to get pointed in the right direction, is all.

I love looking at plans. I've not ever built anything by following them (even jigs), but they're fantastics for ideas. Both on how and how not to buiild a thing.

For someone who has a few tools, likes making sawdust, and has a SWMBO who takes him at his word when she's looking at a $2K wall unit and he sez "Doesn't look that hard to build"...

Whatta you 'spect? Hell, if I didn't know how to DOAGS I'd be asking too!

(Even got an ellipsis in there! )

djb

[Jack-of-all-trades - JOAT]

Fri, Aug 22, 2003, 2:42am (EDT+4) [e-mail] (Bay=A0Area=A0Dave) doesn't get it: Everyone keeps asking for plans, plans, plans.

I don't. But, a lot of people ask because they are too idle to look for themselves, or believe their time is "too valuable" to spend looking for plans. And, some are probably not aware of how to look for plans.

Doesn't anybody have a clue of what THEY want to make, rather than copying someone else's ideas?

Well, yes, they do, that's why they're asking for plans for something. I wouldn't call it "copying someone else's ideas" tho. Someone just starting out would usually be better off following someone else's plans.

Before your time here, but, as I've said before, some people just prefer using plans. Someone else's plans, that is. Even if they have the experience and knowledge to draft professional quality plans of their own. They just like to work from plans. I would say people like that know what they want to make.

I'm constantly amazed at the things people ask for plans for.

You didn't give any examples.

They even PAY for plans!

And? I occassionally pay for plans too. Does thst make me a bad person?

The fun in building something for me is coming up with a design, and then implementing it.

It is for some people, not all. See above. Most of the time I work from no plans, maybe some measurements, other times a rough sketch or two. Once in a blue moon I make up a more complete set of plans for something. I occassionally work with other people' plans, but seldom don't change somehing, when I do.

If I said I was as painter, I sure as heck wouldn't get a paint by numbers kit and just paint within the lines. That's NOT a hobby. OR is it?? Well, if you call yourself a painter, have a truck, ladders, and a couple of helpers, then no, I would say that's NOT a hobby. But, if you just paint your house every year, I would say it's a hobby.

Am I all wet?? Do I have the wrong idea about what woodworking is about?

Yes. Yes. Sounds like you're trying too hard to make it all black and white. Things are seldom just black and white. Usually some black, some white, separated by a big grey (or gray) patch.

This little rant is designed NOT to hurt anyone's feelings:

You hurt my feelings anyway. LMAO

I JUST WANT TO START A DIALOG ON THE SUBJECT

Yep, realized that right from the start. , AS I JUST DON'T GET IT!

So you say. So what? It boils down to, different strokes for different folks.

Perhaps the reason that people need plans is they can't think in three dimensions?? Is that it?

Nope. I can think in three dimensions, sometimes four. And, I still buy plans once in awhile. Plans good. Especially printed plans, so you can hold them and look at them. Some plans are for just dreamin'. I've got some plans stuck away, I pull 'em out once in awhile, just to look at. They're for things I know I will never make, just for dreaming about. Hell, some of them are so damn complicated I probably couldn't actually make them, even if I started tomorrow. So what? Some things are like that, doesn't detract a bit. Those are the things you don't tell people about them, because you don't need somebody telling you, "You'll never make one of those". I have some other plans, that I hope to build one day, a more realistic form of dreams. Sometimes you can tell people about thos, sometimes not. Then there are a few plans, that once I get a some personal things settled, I intend to start on. This will be dreams realized. These plans you can usually tell people about. But, you'll probably still get some idiot telling you, "You can't make one of those". Those are the people you tell, "Up yours". You gotta have dreams, some you know you will never do, some you at least kow are possible, and some you know you can do, and will do.

Besides, plans are always fun to look at, for me anyway, any kind of plans. The plans for the Spruce Goose for example, I have no interesting in flying anything more complex than a kite, but enjoyed the Spruce Goose plans. Didn't save a copy, because that isn't my thing. And, I'm one of those people who aren't young, and know everything. I'm old enough to know I don't know everything, never will, don't care, and still trying to learn as much as I can. Amazing the new ideas you can get from someone else's plans, sometime's it just copying an idea, other times it's inspiration for something a little different. Plans are good. Besides finding plans on the web, last time I cheked, I have more woodworking books (not including magazines) the county library. And still pretty much wing it as far as plans go It's all about enjoying it.

And, if you still don't get it, the Woodworking Gods have informed me that I am not here to elucidate you, and not to worry about it.

JOAT If we're all God's children, what's so special about Jesus?

Life just ain't life without good music. - JOAT Web Page Update 20 Aug 2003. Some tunes I like.

[Brett A. Thomas]

Dave,

Just my limited experiences:

I've built four major things from my own designs and two major things from plans.

The first thing I ever built was a shop table for my planer. I didn't have much else working, yet, so it's just screwed together and is rickety. I designed it myself, though. Wish I'd known about half-lap joints at the time. Maybe a plan would've helped.

The second thing I ever built was a table for my son, of my own design. I didn't get a plan because it seemed to be to be very straightforward. I looked at a number of other children's tables to get the basic dimensions, and designed a big, heavy library table with mortise and tenon jointery - but sized for a two year old. I'm very proud of it.

The third thing I ever built was my son's bed. I looked for plans as a basis because there was a lot about making a bed I didn't want to learn by messing up $250 in cherry. I had no idea how to distribute the loads, how big it should be relative to the mattress, or what knock-down jointery system to use. I got _The Bed Book_ and discovered that the first bed in it was exactly what the bed I wanted to build. I changed the design not one iota. I'm also very proud of that bed - while the design is not mine, I did select the wood, mill it and select and implement the finish. If I do say so myself, it's very pretty.

The fourth thing I ever built was some wall-mounted cabinets for my shop. I designed them myself. One of them is in the process of falling apart. I didn't do a dado for the backs, I just glued and nailed them on, and that wasn't sufficient for the stresses. I wish I'd spent more time looking at plans. Hopefully I'll be able to salvage the materials.

The fifth thing I ever built was an enourmous (6' x 2 1/2') planter for SWMBO. I designed it primarily to skimp on materials while allowing for a lot of wood movement while not actually doing any complicated jointery so that I could move on to a project I really wanted to do. Between you and me I realized after it was about 90% complete that, if you tried to pick it up in the most obvious way while it was full of dirt that it was going to fall apart, so I reinforced it with a bunch of metal L brackets. Yuck. I'm not very proud of it, although I am happy with how it looks. I looked at a lot of plans, and got a lot of ideas about how to design the drainage system for it, but I never really found plans that were exactly what I wanted, so I designed my own. I'm a big fan of the saying, "Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want." This project was good experience.

Finally, I'm building a bench along one wall loosely based upon Norm's "Miter Bench and Storage." It's not exactly the same, but it was very convenient, for such a large project, to have someone else provide a materials and cut list. I'm also paying a lot more attention to how to do things like build drawers so I don't make similar errors to what happened with the cabinets.

To me, there's two basic reasons to use plans. First of all, I know WAY more about woodworking than any other person I know. Unfortunately, that's not saying much. Rather than teaching myself how to design at the same time I teach myself craftmanship, building from someone else's plans allows me to focus a lot of time on the craft of building and not sweat about design details.

The second reason is that the plan is available and is exactly what I need. Most of my woodworking at this time has a utilitarian base - I'm building furniture and fixtures I need. If I see plans that are for almost exactly what I want, it's a definite time-saver to use them as a starting point. Since I'm researching plans anyway to get an idea of what the design elements are to consider, if I find exactly The Plan, why try to recreate it from scratch?

Do I hope to some day be able to just sit down and whip out a design for any project? Absolutely. But I guess in some ways this lets me apprentice myself to people like Jeff Miller or Norm Abram. The master designs, and I implement, and in implementing try to understand the design better.

-BAT

[Montyhp]

Isn't paint by numbers fun?

If I have to whip out a quick project, like a stand for a shop tool or some built in cabinets to conceal some clutter, I'll find a plan. If I am building something for someone else and want to be special, like a desk for my daughter or a jewelry box for my wife, then I design from the ground up.

Montyhp

[George]

Plans are the three "Rs" of woodworking. They are the distilled experience of their creator and generations of woodworkers before. You're using someone's plans even if you don't place a drawing on a board to guide you, the only difference is the paper they're rendered on. The principle is called vicarious experience - education.

BTW, if you don't make a plan, at least to note basic dimensions, you're going to have a lot more things to complain about here - like wasting wood.

[Absinthe]

There is a concept in the software industry referred to Patterns and Practices. Or "Best Practices". Point of it is that if you are writing let's say an Accounting package, there are some things that they should all have, and ways in which certain function should work. Also, in the kitchen, we have a thing called a recipe box. In it we have "plans" for different foodstuffs. Granted I may like walnuts in my cake, or you might like cherries, but if you don't get the right amount of baking powder or baking soda in it, it will be a pile of goo.

I see plans as recipes. In the same vein there are reasons that most chairs are so high and tables are another height. Granted that if your family is taller than the norm, or shorter than the norm you might modify a set of plans to make it so, but if one were making let's say a bed, and wanted standard mattress and or sheets to fit it, you may wish to start with a set of plans.

As for paint by numbers, I have seen some oil's done that way that are beautiful, and the lady that did them thoroughly enjoyed herself. She certainly considered that a hobby. I know a guy that makes wine, but he starts with a mix rather than growing and stepping on his own grapes. he still considers himself a wine maker, and enjoys his hobby... and may I say the wine is delicious. hell, the guy that built my house used a set of plans.

Are you suggesting that one using plans is not a hobbyist? Ok, so one must make his own plans. How about using mfg wood products? Should one only use solid wood... From trees that he felled himself, grown from his own seeds, cut with an axe that he forged in a furnace that he built, fired by coal that he mined himself......

You find your enjoyment in the design of things. That is wonderful and you enjoy that. Some people, probably enjoy planing, jointing or dressing wood. My son, for example couldn't be bothered with any of it, he just likes to hammer nails. There are many aspects to this hobby, in the days of the tradesmen (please no flames about how we still have tradesmen, I agree) there were separate jobs. Jointer, Sawyer... etc. I can't imagine making hand cut dovetails 10 - 16 hours a day, but that might really be somebody's thing. I don't mind cutting a couple, either as a matter of discipline or for bragging rights, but if I had to do a bunch give me a template and a router...

This is starting to sound a bit flamey... I am not intending it that way. Just ranting. I think I remember a thread a long time back about purists getting to the point of banging on a tree with a rock... You can take any aspect of the art, and say that is all it is. But design, is just that, one aspect. On another note, just because one has a set of plans, doesn't mean he can make it. The skills necessary to make a joint or even make a square cut are still involved, as is finishing (something I absolutely hate by the way.)

I have built some things from plans, others modified from basic plans, and still other things from a picture or a discussion. I have fired up turbocad and made my own things too. I have also "winged" it and found a certain way through "I guess I can't get to that screw since I already glued that other joint in the way..." I find no pleasure in that though.

-- Absinthe

[Swingman]

I rarely use plans (and it often shows), but I have nothing against them and don't feel that following as set of plans is in the category of using "training wheels" or "painting by the numbers" at all.

AAMOF, it often takes more discipline and skill to follow a set of plan than to bumble off on some tangent, taking shortcuts that don't do the project.justice.

I often see a furniture project that I want, or am asked to build, where nothing needs to be changed. If good plans are available, it often means I can build the item more efficiently, with less waste, and in less time by using them.

That said, you need not be a slave to a set of plans ... some of the better classic furniture plans were drawn up in an age when there were not as many choices with regard to joinery and tools, so departure from, but remaining in the spirit of the design is often desirable.

Not to mention, that with hardwood prices continually rising, more self-styled 'designers with no plans' will likely begin to view standing on the shoulders of those who came before them as a wise move.

[Ben Siders]

This is a pretty narrow and egocentric view to take.

I know what I want to make, but I don't know how. Not yet, anyway. And sometimes I just want to make SOMETHING and don't know how. I'm just getting started in woodworking. The first thing I did was build a cheap workbench, and I used my leftover materials to build a low assembly table. I got the workbench plans off the Interweb (har) and I drafted the plans for my assembly table on my own.

Like?

So?

Not everybody has the know-how to draft quality plans that they can follow. I've done 4 years of hand drafting and CAD, am a decent artist, and I still can't just whip up plans to whatever I want. What I can do, though, is measure the area I want to place a piece in and go find plans for a piece that has the look I want and adjust them to fit my space. Why re-invent the wheel? Why go to all the hassle of drawing up plans when somebody else may have drafted exactly what I want?

I don't like this analogy. It doesn't take any knowledge, skill, experience, or even any real tools to follow a paint-by-number kit. Suppose you were a painter, however, and masterfully replicated Monet's _Le bateau atelier_. Would you then be willing to say that you've done nothing and your painting isn't a hobby because you just copied somebody else's idea? I doubt it.

Anything you do on a semi-regular basis to pass the time could be considered a hobby, in my opinion.

Yes, you do. You're mixing woodworking with design. You don't have to be a masterful woodworking to design a piece. You don't have a design a piece to be a masterful woodworking. I think most people learn how to do both at the same time, but certainly many people, especially newer folks like me, probably lack enough skill/knowledge in either discipline to design what we want to build. It's also possible that people just want plans to get an idea of what kind of joints to use, what type of wood looks good, veneers, what order to do things in, the name of the router bit to use, etc, etc.

Well, my feelings aren't hurt, but you do come across as a bit self-righteous. Not everybody does it your way, so you are openly questioning whether or not they're even "real" woodworkers?

MANY people have this problem. MANY MANY MANY people. You need only witness how many people can easily cruise through a year of two-dimensional math in college and just get crucified when they reach the second year and have to do three-variable calculus. But I think many people just lack the time, training, expertise, or desire to draft their own plans, especially if they think there's a good chance that somebody else had the same idea they had and they don't feel like re-inventing the wheel.

Just my input on it the topic, as a complete neophyte.

[Bay Area Dave]

Why JOAT, have I elicited your longest ever post? :) Thank you very much for taking your time to enlighten me as to the value of collecting, reviewing, and possibly even WORKING from plans.

ok...TS sled is ONE example...but in light of my "enlightenment" I shouldn't be amazed. As I said at the onset, I just "didn't get it". Now I can see their purpose, which can be different for each person, or different to the same person, depending on their current needs. I was using tunnel vision, thinking that plans were like following instructions on putting together a Heathkit. Now I get it!

Absolutely not, nor was I implying such. Refer back to my previous answer.

ah, but I DO get it!...Now it's time for me to read the other responses following yours.

Happy plans to you! :)

dave

Jack-of-all-trades - JOAT wrote:

[Bay Area Dave]

Brett,

Thanks so much for contributing to this thread and answering in such detail. I may have to start Googling thru JOAT'S many plans before I start building my office desk, which should be my next project. I agree it's silly to reinvent the wheel.

dave

Brett A. Thomas wrote:

[PC Gameplayer]

Dave:

RE: your question...

I'll present the other side of the coin. I look at plans in the same way that I look at a recipe in a cookbook...it's a start. I may not know anything about making my own pizza crust, but I can look in a cookbook and find a start. Then, I can add parmesan cheese, garlic, herbs, etc., to the crust--and make it uniquely mine.

Same with plans. They give me a starting point with instructions on how to do something I like, and I can then tweak them to make it unique. The other thing--sometimes I learn some new techniques or ideas from plans.

Having said all that...now that I'm getting some additional experience under my belt, I'm starting to do less and less from plans.

I understand your point, and I'm not disagreeing with your POV, just presenting an alternative.

Jim

p.s.--I've always wondered where in the bay area you are? I live in Chicago but travel to Alameda about once a month for work. Just curious. (C:

[Bay Area Dave]

George, I'm more highly educated this morning than yesterday, having read responses in this thread. When I built my workbench and wall cabinets, I first sat at my pc and worked in Excel to calculate dimensions, esp. since there were dados and rabbets involved. Even so, one cabinet came out a bit wider than I had designed, due to one oversight while doing the calcs. But all in all, those 3 projects went pretty well, considering how newbie I am at this. During construction of a drawer for my Unisaw, I forget to dado for the bottom, which I realized just as I glued it together. After much discussion, I ended up Roo gluing and stapling the bottom to the underside edge of the drawer sides, since it is a light duty drawer. Had I had more step by step plans, I would most likely have avoid that snafu. As my projects become more complex, I'm gonna hit a wall where I can't conceptualize the "whole package" any longer. For the time being I've been able to get away with winging it. :)

dave

George wrote:

[Sir Edgar]

****************************************************** Fortunately I can think in three dimensions and can visualize the finished piece before I make the first saw cut. I bought a set of plans before I made my first grandfather's clock to learn the proportions of the base to the waist to the upper clock face section. I then put them aside and started making it from scratch. It was a good thing that I did for the plans had numerous dimensional errors in their cut list and I would have wasted some expensive oak. However, I do not think that it matters whether a person uses plans or not. The main idea is the pleasure of creating something out of wood and the indescribable joy of looking at the finished product and saying to one's self "I made that !" If you're really a dedicated woodworker it can be better than sex (almost!). Peace to all ~ Sir Edgar =F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8= =F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8=F8

[Jeepnstein]

I always enjoy reading over a set of plans. From my point of view they are no different from a book or short story. I'm always interested in learning different methods and styles. How else, except for serving as an apprentice under an accomplished cabinetmaker, am I going to see how others practice their craft? I look forward to the plans I get in my Woodsmith subscription just to get to try a new technique.

Oh, I'm looking for plans right now. I'm interested in library shelves and built-in china cabinets at the moment. We're going to need about a dozen Adirondack chairs for our front porch in the spring. And I'm still on the quest for the perfect fishing rod rack, something stylish and solid that suits my arts and crafts taste. How else can I see what others have learned unless I look for plans?

Jim

[George]

Watch the "step by step" plans. If you forgo good sense to follow them, you can end up remaking - as I am right now - some of the pieces. Like a fool, I cut them to measure, not to fit.