I have a new wall dividing a room made with steel studs, like you would see on most commercial jobs.
Problem is with the floor molding attachment. I know nails should be fairly worthless there, or so I would think, so it would seem that some sort of gluing would be necessary but how would I be able to ensure a tight fit to the wall short of using screws with the attendant filling problem? Or am I just looking at this all wrong?
Practical advice is needed. Thank you in advance.
O.K. Just a Thought I have used these Made by GRK available at True value They hold well and have about a 1/8-3/16 head with a torx . You can easily drill a 1/4 ' pilot hole 1/4' deep in Your molding or baseboard and Screw it in it will easily self tap into sheet metal and conceal with wood filler Just a bit larger than a large finish nail. If I'm correctly understanding Your aplication and What You may be up against these may work for You. Here is just a Pic on another website. The GRK web adress is painfully long.
I Dunno OFWW if this helps You any! rick B.
Correction on the Pilot hole size Sometimes the heads will self bury but they can pressure chip the wood. I suggest with this application find the smallest head size and drill it size accordingly. rick B.
I am finishing up a dental clinic with this same situation. Usually, we put a rubber or vinyl "sanitary base" at this detail, but in the owner's offic e, he wanted something that looked a little less commercial and sterile.
As I have done in the past, I glue the moldings on. I buy the appropriate trim in mdf, not pine, as it conforms more easily to the shape of the wall. I put a small "Hershey's kiss" of liquid nails on the top and bottom of t he trim every 12" or so. I mark the face of the trim with a pencil mark so I don't have to remember where my glue is when nailing.
I press the molding in place, the using a long brad (for me since I am goin g into 5/8" sheet rock) I shoot a brad at an obtuse angle, about 45 degrees . I shoot one at the top, then one farther down at the opposite angle, for ming an "X". The lower brad is shot to be just over the top of the track, or channel that holds the studs. For small pieces, one brad will usually do the trick. The brads are there to hold the molding in place until the adh esive cures, and once the adhesive is cured, the molding will not come off without tearing up the sheet rock.
Been doing it this way for years, never had a fail. And if you are paintin g this wall and trim detail, you will no doubt caulk the top of the trim, a dding more adhesive to the detail.
As a sidebar, I put about 250' of chair rail up at the same place, and inst ead of liquid nails I used a OK quality of painter's acrylic caulk. The pr ocess is the same, but in this case if I got a bit of squeeze out, I could wipe it off easily with a damp rag.
Since I do a lot of remodeling and repairs, I have come to respect caulk as an adhesive after taking a lot of details apart only to find the whole mes s was held together by nothing more than caulk. A surprise for me, but when thinking about it, some of those joints were decades old when I got to the m, and they hadn't failed, either.
So if it were me, thinking squeeze out, I would probably use caulk on the b ase, too. If you are unsure, make it bulletproof and use liquid nails.
Robert
If the drywall is on this will not work, putting some 2x4 blocking in bottom of the wall before the drywall.
Gluing "tacking with a few finish nail til the glue dries" would work, aim above the bottom steel stud.
Most commercial install use that vinyl glue on stuff.
Grinning, I thought about that a week after I did it. :(
Thanks
Thanks Robert, The nails only into the drywall, not the sheet metal makes sense especially with Caulk. I have some liquid nails but the consistency is a bit thinker. I am using that for the "wood" floor molding in the doorway to the hall, on top of concrete slab.
Much appreciated.
Thanks Rick, I'll be keeping those in mind, With those I wouldn't even need glue of any type. For now I'll be going with nailshooters plan.
Hope it helps! Like I said, never a failure yet (knocking on wood)and I hav e to make sure of my installs since I have to warrant them.
Not to be arbitrary, but if you are doing this again, I wouldn't use screws for the trim install, and wouldn't block between the studs. Both take too long. As for the screws, it is a great idea for a few feet of trim. But you need to have the "feel" for the tool to make sure you don't overdrive t he screws. Some bite hard, and since those are made for wood use (note: coa rse threads) they strip easily in metal. It is too hard while crawling on y our hands and knees to get every screw "just right".
As for blocking between each and every stud... takes too long. You cut ever y block, then screw it into the metal studs with four screws. And as you ha ve seen, every metal stud has a curl on the open side on each edge which ac tually makes it more of a purlin/purling than a stud. This folded edge wil l cause your stud blocks to go in unevenly, and generally be a pain in the ass. You spend more time blocking out than you do framing and trim installa tion.
So if you feel that you need some wood backing for some reason, try this: if you are using 1/2" sheet rock, run a 3 1/2" band of plywood around the b ottom of the wall before you install the rock. Pop a line so it is straigh t, and you can use it as a ledger board to help hold he rock in place while you secure it. Put your cut to the bottom (you will be cutting 3 1/2" off the rock to accommodate the ledger) so factory is up making a clean joint. So now you have 3 1/2" of solid plywood to attach your base to, and if yo u put a 4" base on it, the joint will be covered up as well as the raw plyw ood. A time saving advantage is that you put the plywood strips up in 8' s ections, so most rooms only need one, maybe two cuts per side. Goes up qui ck. Likewise, you can adjust your measurements if you are using 5/8" rock. Just use 5/8" plywood. One sheet will give you a couple of miles of back ing when ripping 3 1/2" strips.
And one more thought while I am rattling on... Liquid Nails is a great "go to" adhesive for a lot of things. I use A LOT of it. But I have not always found it to be waterproof, regardless of the manufacturer's claims. If yo u are using the LN "heavy duty" on your floor trim you should be fine. If you are going to buy some adhesive, look around for PL400 all weather sub f loor adhesive. It is made for extreme temp fluctuations and has good elast icity. Since it is actually a polyurethane based adhesive, it is almost im pervious to water. And unlike LN, it is specifically designed for gluing di ssimilar materials such as wood to concrete. It's usually about the same pr ice, about $4 a tube.
Hope you come back and let us know how the caulk "X" nail plan turns out fo r you.
Robert
Thanks for the great advice, I think I'll store my liquid nails a little longer and try your advice on the PL400 also. I hope to have my molding up by this week end and will reply back as to how it went.
I also appreciate the time you took with this and hope it will also help others.
ave to make sure of my installs since I have to warrant them.
ws for the trim install, and wouldn't block between the studs. Both take t oo long. As for the screws, it is a great idea for a few feet of trim. Bu t you need to have the "feel" for the tool to make sure you don't overdrive the screws. Some bite hard, and since those are made for wood use (note: c oarse threads) they strip easily in metal. It is too hard while crawling on your hands and knees to get every screw "just right".
ery block, then screw it into the metal studs with four screws. And as you have seen, every metal stud has a curl on the open side on each edge which actually makes it more of a purlin/purling than a stud. This folded edge w ill cause your stud blocks to go in unevenly, and generally be a pain in th e ass. You spend more time blocking out than you do framing and trim instal lation.
if you are using 1/2" sheet rock, run a 3 1/2" band of plywood around the bottom of the wall before you install the rock. Pop a line so it is strai ght, and you can use it as a ledger board to help hold he rock in place whi le you secure it. Put your cut to the bottom (you will be cutting 3 1/2" o ff the rock to accommodate the ledger) so factory is up making a clean join t. So now you have 3 1/2" of solid plywood to attach your base to, and if you put a 4" base on it, the joint will be covered up as well as the raw pl ywood. A time saving advantage is that you put the plywood strips up in 8' sections, so most rooms only need one, maybe two cuts per side. Goes up q uick. Likewise, you can adjust your measurements if you are using 5/8" roc k. Just use 5/8" plywood. One sheet will give you a couple of miles of ba cking when ripping 3 1/2" strips.
I'm sure I could check this out myself, but it's easier to just ask. ;-)
Is 1/2" (5/8") drywall then same thickness as 1/2" (5/8") plywood or at lea st close enough for this application?
I know that 1/2" (5/8") plywood really isn't 1/2" (5/8"). Is drywall?
east close enough for
No, but they are both similarly smaller, so the plan works. It is importan t though, if you install as I described that you put the cut side on top of the plywood. That way your molding will sit flat on the plywood "ledger", and the molding will cover the joint. If you put the bevel side from the f actory you will have a difference in thickness immediately where the rock s its on the ledger, which in turn will cause your molding to sit at an angle when bridging or covering the joint of the rock and plywood.
If you are running your sheets parallel to the floor and you put the /facto ry/ edge on top of the ledger you will have the bevel edge which is thinner as it is made to receive tape/mud. Then you would see a big difference, a nd you would be forced to mud the joint to fill in the bevel.
Robert
Use trim screws... they are designed for this. They have a very small head and the trim can be filled like it was a finish nail.
For example
That's what I was thinking. You're filling either nail heads or screw heads-- same amount of work. X-nailing in the sheetrock will suffice where there is no stud. IIRC, metal stud construction still has a sole plate to screw into.
Maybe not. The classic molding of yesteryear was a rectangular board that didn't follow the curvature of the wall, or the dips and warps of the floorboards, but you can hide the cracks at the floor with a quarter-round 'shoe mold', and the cracks at the wall are covered with a decorative top trim (both the shoe mold and the top trim are flexible and DO follow the curvature). So, it's a matter of attachiing the board (glue, or screws into the metal studs), and then the shoe and top trim can be pinned to the board; those pneumatic pin nailers work well for this.
Regular old plaster walls didn't take nails well, either.
They still don't. Nor are they flat.
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