Finally saw Nahmie for first time in 20 years...

[loutent]

Well said Tom - I couldn't agree more.

Lou

[david]

thanks, Tom, excellent post...as a carpenter lurching and stumbling down that same path I can relate, especially to the part of wanting whatever tool/skill/knowledge will produce a better result in (hopefully)less time and with more fun...

david

Tom Wats> >

[biggmutt53]

Right on, Tom.

[J&KCopeland]

And, I think this business about all his "powertools" is mostly baloney. Except for the wide belt sander (lathe, production pocket hold machine), I'd venture to guess that most of the experienced woodworkers probably come close to his shop inventory. As a matter of fact as production shops go, he's probably towards the low end of the scale.

I really think where he has most of the rest of us beat is a large dedicated shop building.

Just hazarding a WAG (wild ass guess), I'd think that his shop could be reproduced for $10,000, certainly less than $20,000. (I don't know how much that sander costs).

Cripes, I know guys that have spent (much) more than that on their boats, just to catch fish that they turn around and throw back.

[Lee Gordon]

I don't think that's it. A lot of people here have swell power tools. Unlike Norm, they might have had to pay actual cash money for theirs but I still don't believe jealousy is the issue. I think what it usually boils down to (including the OP in this thread) is people slamming Norm for doing things differently from the way they would do them. Norm gets a little nailgun happy sometimes (OK, a lot of the time), and people gang up on him because they prefer glue and clamps only. Norm slaps some dark stain on a newly crafted piece of cherry furniture because maybe he likes the color or it matches all the other Queen Anne furniture in his house, and people climb all over him as if he has violated one of the 10 Commandments. What so many people fail to recognize is that NYW is all about demonstrating different (most often power-assisted) ways of achieving similar outcomes. So one week you might see Norm making mortices and tenons with his dedicated morticing machine and a table saw and another week he may use a bit and brace and some chisels. And the more different techniques he demonstrates to perform the same type of operation, the more likely he is to deviate from the way any one guy "always does it."

Lee

[Lee Gordon]

For a long time all I knew about David Marks was what I read here. I was under the impression that when it came to neanders, DJM was second only to Roy Underhill. Then my cable system added DIY network to its On-Demand service. I finally got to watch one or two of Marks' shows and was amazed to see him using some power tools Norm could only dream about. (For example, I've never seen Norm make use of a multi-router like Marks uses.) Unfortunately, I have only had the chance to see a few Marks episodes so I don't know if uses mortice & loose tenon joinery for every project or just happened to use the same method for the ones I caught. From the shows I have seen, Marks also seems to presume that the viewer has a certain level of woodworking knowledge, whereas Norm seems to explain everything as if even the basics are new to most of the audience. Now don't get me wrong. I am a huge admirer of David Marks and his craftsmanship. I think even Norm himself would concede that David is the more accomplished woodworker (although I might opt for Norm to build me a house). However, the notion that David is all about spokeshaves and rasps and Norm would be helpless if there had never been a Mr. Porter and a Mr. Cable is an erroneous one.

Lee

[Lee Michaels]

My primary objection to what Norm does is the tired old antiques that he is always trying to duplicate. Talk about an OLD Yankee cliche. Surround yourself with a luxurious shop with heated floors, and what do you create?? Modern replicas of moldy, old furniture from a hundred years ago or so.

I would be much more impressed with discussions of new designs. And how to make things for the shop of a modern house. I remember a computer desk that he made using all the conventional antique criteria. What about a discussion of ergonomics and trying to preven overuse injuries?

There are a thousand and one applications of woodworking knowledge in the modern world. But at old Nahm's shop, he is anywhere from 200 - 40 years in the past.

[rcook5]

To carry Norm's tools you'd have to be as strong as two oxen.

--RC

"Sometimes history doesn't repeat itself. It just yells 'can't you remember anything I've told you?' and lets fly with a club. -- John W. Cambell Jr.

[igor]

At least you used the plural.

[LRod]

Well, you're welcome to your opinion, but I LIKE those tired old antiques. And judging by both the genuine antique market and the repro market, so do a lot of people.

Although David Marks is okay (he has a long, long way to go to be as smooth and have the presence Norm does), I don't care for 90% of the stuff he makes. Too artsy fartsy or "modern" for my tastes.

But in neither case does that make Norm or David wrong or eligible for our criticism. The styles are different. Period.

Or you could say, "move to California and fill a shop with 12 or 16" jointers, behemoth band saws, and thousands of board feet of mahogany, wenge, bubinga, and other exotics and what do you create? Modern crap (albeit well made crap) worthy of the new owners of the house in Beetlejuice, which will be long and gratefully forgotten a hundred years or so from now."

Again, that presumes that old, venerated, tried and true designs are bad (your opinion) and "modern" designs are good (also your opinion). I'm unmoved by your choices. But they are your choices. So watch Norm or not, but leave his choices alone because they're just fine by me. Go watch David.

- - LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

[Unisaw A100]

At a party I once asked a friend, "Have you met my first wife Susan". She (Susan) was not amused.

UA100

[Unisaw A100]

And if you don't mind giving up all your Saturdays for a couple/few years you can cut the $10,000 back by

25-50% (Your Mileage May Vary). Of course you have to give up all your Saturdays for a couple/few years.

That was my argument for getting the zero-turn radius mower.

UA100, who likes cutting the grass and damn it I'm going to have some fun while I'm doing it...

[Silvan]

Since this whole thread seems to have turned the wrath of so many against me, I thought I would expand on that last point a bit. I don't work in manufacturing, but I've spent more than my fair share of time in furniture factories. They have big machines, lots of gadgets, and a different station for everything, but the end result is soulless and uninspired at best. That's exactly the impression I got watching Nahmie's show. It was like watching one of the factory guys showing me how they make stacks of identical futons. Sure, it's wood. Sure, the parts fit together. Where's the soul? The spirit of the piece? The imagination?

I guess I'm an artiste type, as you surmise, which is hardly surprising considering my other hobbies include photography, painting (on canvas), drawing, ornamental gardening and music. To each his own. Anybody who enjoys Nahmie is more than welcome to watch and emulate him all day long. You can have as many routahs and oscillating reciprocating double articulated hoosalflootchies as you have outlets and money for for all I care. For my own part, I will keep doing what I'm doing, and I will make a point just to leave the stupid idiot light off for another 20 years.

[Upscale]

Hah! Sounds like one of those people who like to poke the animal with the big teeth just to see what type of reaction they get.

[Ron Bean]

One of Jim Tolpin's books mentions that the difference between cabinets and furniture is that a cabinet is attatched to a wall, and furniture is not. That means the joints are stressed differently, and have to be designed differently.

[Patriarch]

Brian Henderson wrote in news: [e-mail]:

The David Marks shows are shot 1 day per project. Production assistants, many of whom are members of the Sonoma County Woodworkers, do a lot of the grunt work to get the prototypes and pieces ready to shoot.

Television production is _not_ an inexpensive business. Neither can the show be allowed to unduly tie up the Marks' shop. He still has a woodworking business to run.

And he does make beautiful projects.

Patriarch

[Jeffrey Thunder]

Akshully, the sander most likely costs as much as the rest of his shop equipment combined. I don't really lust after any of Norm's tools - I even have some which I feel are better. The exception is that TimeSaver. Jeezus, but that's one sweet machine; takes up as much room as a car, and costs about the same.

Really? I always pegged you as more of a sheep guy, Keeter.

Gawd, now we know you're a sicko!

[Unisaw A100]

I tried that. The neighbors look at you funny when you're riding a sheep.

Luuuuke, feel the force of the dark side.

UA100

[George]

That's exactly the impression I got watching Nahmie's show. It was

Wow! If you're trying to breathe life (anemos) into a FUGLY Marks lamp, what makes you think that a wide-belt sander has no soul (anima)?

[Jeffrey Thunder]

That's cuz you picked the ugly one.

Mowing sucks; that's why Al Gore invented asphalt.

OBWW: does painting MDF trim count as woodworking?