Finally saw Nahmie for first time in 20 years...

[Basic Wedge]

Ol' Keefer prattled on:

OK. Stop!!!

That could be your best story yet! Sad, really.

Yah, we've heard it before.

[loutent]

Hi Lee,

As Seinfeld has already said so well....

That's a show...

That's another...

Another...

Another... (maybe 2 shows)

and another...

[loutent]

Hi Dave,

Of course you are right in this...who could argue?

Happy woodworking!

Lou

[Patriarch]

Leuf wrote in news: [e-mail]:

My adult son just turns off the TV when I 'correct' Norm on the TiVo reruns.

We had a saying, couple of decades ago, in the personal computer business:

"Ignorance to Arrogance in 90 days."

Still applies, I guess.

Patriarch, who still at least scans for new-to-him NYW material...

[Patriarch]

Unisaw A100 wrote in news: [e-mail]:

Sounds rather like David Marks' work this season. As a friend of mine, with College of the Redwoods credentials, called him, "Norm on Steroids".

And there was cleary respect in his tone.

I'll say one other thing about Norm: When I periodically get the power tool-buying lust, my wife has a pretty clear idea what the power tool is supposed to do, at least these days.

Three years ago, she regularly confused a Sawzall with a Unisaw, never having seen either of them.

Patriarch, trying to repent...

[Patriarch]

Leuf wrote in news: [e-mail]:

Can you say "production assistants"?

You have to be able to leverage the franchise.

Patriarch

[Owen Lawrence]

Yah, that comment still irks me every time I produce an offcut longer than

4", which seems to happen every time I use the saw, any saw. I get to wondering how many times Norm had already built a shop so that he knows what dimensions to choose that will limit waste. Like that optimal box from a rectangle someone else asked about, I don't think you can really do this sort of thing in your head when you're designing and building at the same time. Hmmm. Maybe that's the secret; design first. :)

- Owen -

[Upscale]

I've always wondered about his use of the brad nailer. Has Norm have run a show where he's shown how to hide those brad nails? Nail set and a little plastic wood or whatever?

[larrybud2002]

Of course he did, that's half the fun of the show. If you don't like it, don't watch it. Have you been living in a hole for 20 years as well to understand what his show is about? He's talked about on here a fair amount.

I gotta believe people that beat up on him for using so many different advanced power tools are the same people that beat up on atheletes for being successful and businessmen for making money. Gotta be a jealously thing.

[Upscale]

I figure it's a logistic thing. If he's going to get the project built within the time period of the show, then he's necessarily going to need to take shortcuts that the average person can't ~ one of them being all those power tools. I watch the show to get ideas for things to build. I wouldn't use all the methods he uses even if I had all those tools. I'd follow the construction in general and make improvements or changes to suit myself.

If Norm built all those project without the shortcuts and took the time to build like most of us here, each project would run at least two or three shows. In a situation like that, I wouldn't watch the show near as much.

[loutent]

Hi Upscale,

I remember that in some of the earlier shows where he was making painted projects (I forget exactly which ones), that he was actually shown filling some of those nail holes.

He said that he liked to usie glazing compound instead of wood filler because it didn't shrink as much and stayed pliable.

Never tried it myself, but I guess it would work ok.

Lou

[biggmutt53]

Oh, please, lay off Norm. The guy never said he was an artiste, as some who critique his show might view themselves, and has never held himself out as anything but a master carpenter, which I believe he certainly is. He has started many on the path to making stuff out of wood, and for that alone he deserves credit. And hey, if they offered anyone on the wreck the job as host of NYW there would be a small riot as folks lined up to get the gig. Do I do things differently than Norm does, sure, and there's likely four more ways to get any job done. Do you need a 2hp 220v oscillating belt sander to taper a table leg, hell no, but he's got one available so why not use it. Norm never said you have to have one, or a wide belt sander, or a lathe duplicator, or a $65 glue bottle from Lamello, etc. My uneducated guesstimate is that

95% of the operations in any given episode involve a TS, BS, jointer, planer, drill press or router table, and anyone who is even close to being a serious hobbyist has those tools available to him or her at various price points. And it is my view if it were not for Norm and the interest in the craft he generated over the last 20 years or so by NYW and TOH (i.e., hobbyist demand/volume of sales) those tools would not be available in the range or at the price points that make sense to a lot of folks on a budget. Nuff said.

Mutt

[Larry Jaques]

On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 12:10:15 -0500, Silvan calmly ranted:

OVER Norm's sig, I hope.

[D. J. Dorn]

I agree. Like him or not, he is credited with a vast amount of people getting into woodworking such as myself. Watching the show, I would say, I could do that, I just need a few tools. Now with a complete shop, I am able to do the methods he has demonstrated for so many years and I'm having a ball doing it and much of my home is filled with practical things I've made and am proud of..

I've watched David Marks and frankly, I'd rather watch Norm - I'm not into the artsy stuff and he (Norm) builds practical things that are within the reach of an intermediate woodworker. As to the power tools, I really don't understand the fuss. If a person wants to use hand tools and that is their thing - go for it. The truth is however, even the Shakers were very progressive people and used tools that were the latest available in order to be more efficient. It was a Shaker sister that invented the round saw blade and they were among the first to have cars and use powered lathes (steam). If they were prevelant today, I'll bet they'd have a complete shop, using Unisaws, dado stacks and dovetail jigs. Don't you think the pioneers would have used a Homelight if they'd have had one? I'll admit that I've backed off the brad nailer on anything that might show but I love pocket hole joinery - fast, efficient & strong. Purists can do what they like but I don't understand the need to bash Norm or anyone else that uses power. I agree on the jealousy thing.

Don

[Brian Henderson]

This is TV, he can take 5 years to build a project and they can still fit it into a half hour. He uses the power tools because he's given all of them for free.

But David Marks can manage to make much more complicated projects using largely hand tools and still does them in one show. And he takes weeks to actually make anything.

Ah, the power of television editting.

[Upscale]

I haven't yet seen David Marks do a TV show. Don't know of any stations, (cable TV stations anyway) that are available with Marks up here in Canada. Next time I move, I'm damn sure going to be looking for an apartment that has a view of the southwest so I can get satellite.

[Slowhand]

Being relatively new to woodworking, 3 years now officially, I would have to pay homage to Norm. He did inspire me to start woodworking. Until then I was putting wood together with no clue. Or glue. ;-)

He showed me the way. I took it from there. I thank Norm.

I respectfully somewhat disagree with you on your above statement for some of his creations. Some of them *are* indeed woodworking. Some are more along the manufacturing lines. But you gotta admit, he has some cool gadgets!

I think the basis of his show is to familiarize the audience with what kind of techniques and machinary are out there. That's my take anyway. I like some of the stuff he makes and some I don't. Not being the real patient type, I prefer simple stuff.

Machine over hand tools? Whenever the opportunity presents itself. But hey, that's just my style. There are many others and to each there own. SH

[Bob Schmall]

This craftsman vs. artiste-type thread breaks out every so often, and it will never go away. A hundred years from now it'll be laser-guided saws vs. robot-control machines that accept a log at one end and spew out a cabriole leg from the other. The same arg...er, discussion occurs in amateur astronomy today, involving the latest computer-aligned and guided telescopes vs. manual operation and star-hopping to find things. My SIL paid more than $3,000 for a sewing machine and takes home metal from the state fair every year. She doesn't own a thimble. I gotta think that other hobbies are the same--turn-it-on-and-listen in ham radio vs. build-it yourself, gentleman racers vs grease monkeys, etc. To me, a tool is a tool, whether it's tailed or not. The craftsmanship is all in the using. YMMV, and probably does.

Bob

[Upscale]

I think it comes down to not mattering how something is made as long as it's useful, gets compliments from the people we know and costs less than buying one. (assuming that one works for free when woodworking)

[Tom Watson]

(The following is freely snipped)

I've always enjoyed watching Norm.

One of the reasons is that his growth and development has paralleled my own.

Norm started out as a carpenter and then gravitated towards doing the fussier stuff. He was already pretty good at trim work when I first started watching him - back in the days of Bob.

The first natural step away from doing rough and finish carpentry is towards built-ins. You can spend a whole career on built-in work, learning more about design and construction as you go.

There is a crossover phase between building built-ins like a carpenter and starting to build them more like a furniture maker. Your design sense gets better, particularly if you are fortunate enough to work with good designers and architects. Your work eventually becomes less carpenterish.

Some fellas, and I believe Norm to be one of them, keep on following this path until it leads them to freestanding work, or what might properly be called furniture.

When I started out as a carpenter, which was pretty much the same time as Norm did, carpenters still made a lot of built-in work. The kitchens were often done onsite and things like bookcases, fireplace surrounds, wainscot and window seats were done there too. The joinery was what you could do with the tools available to you in the field. You wanted more tools so that you could rip a nicer line than you could with the circular saw, make a nicer door than a slab and batten, cobble up a better drawer than a butted glue and nail.

Most of the guys that I have known, who were any good at carpentry, wanted those tools so that they could do nicer work in an efficient enough fashion to satisfy themselves and the requirements of the marketplace. You wanted to follow your star but you had to deal with that old Nemesis - The Marketplace.

Even at the level of built-ins there is a bit of snobbery involved. The guys who grew up in the shop look down on the converted carpenters, even though you could probably follow their lineage back to a carpenter somewheres in the woodpile.

Breaking into freestanding work is another major leap. On a skill level, you are going to have to make your own mistakes and learn from them the best you can. On the business level - that is a tough market, with many niche markets, where the margins are tight and the money is dumbed down by the number of people who are willing to do it on a subsistence level - there's your artist, used to living in a culture that does not reward the artist, so much as the sellers and collectors of art. Most places that show and sell mark up one hundred percent, getting more than you did for creating the piece.

I'll bet Norm feels fortunate to have found a path that lets him grow and explore. I've not seen many things that he has designed himself - but he's still a young fella and that may come along.

Certainly he has to show the wares of his Patron, and this is no different from those who have created under the banner of patrons of the arts since time out of mind. Our patrons these days are corporate and Delta is the current Medici of American WoodDorking - Gosh Bless Them.

Norm is slowly knocking the carpenter out of himself. It's fun to watch him do it.

Most of the guys who bitch about Norm here on the Wreck aren't worthy to carry the man's tools.

tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)

(webpage)