Finally saw Nahmie for first time in 20 years...

[Slowhand]

It depends. Did you mitre the corners? ;-) SH

[Brian Henderson]

No, that's not it either.

See, the problem as I see it, and I do like Norm and have a lot of respect for him, but he's presenting the extreme of one point of view to the newbie woodworker crowd. He's giving the view that you need a shop full of tools to do even the most basic woodworking tasks to people who largely don't know any better. If all I had to go by was Norm back when I started woodworking, I'd have never gotten started because I'd never have been able to afford the tool obsession.

I'm certainly not jealous of his tools, I couldn't care less. What bugs me is his complete and absolute reliance on every tool in his shop, even when the job could and probably should be done faster, easier and cheaper another way. It's pretty bad when even Steve Thomas was making fun of Norm and his tools.

Personally, I don't care if Norm uses his nailgun or a $20k Clamp-o-matic. It's irrelevant. What does matter is that he lets people know that there is an option, something he doesn't do. He's not demonstrating technique, he's taking the easy way out and showing off his sponsor's products. I'm sure that's where he makes the majority of his money, PBS can't pay much, but we're there to watch him teach woodworking, not the Delta or Porter Cable Home Shopping Channel.

But it isn't. It's about demonstrating one $1000 machine after another doing things that could also be done with a hand scraper or a chisel

That would be nice. Even if he just MENTIONS it once in a while, I'd be happier. No matter how many people he's introduced to woodworking, I'd be curious to know how many he's scared away because he only shows what you can do in a $20k shop and very, very few people can afford anything like that starting out. If they could, we wouldn't get all the posts here about cheap table saws, would we?

Norm certainly has a place in the woodworking pantheon, but he's really not a good representative of how woodworking should be done for the beginner and unfortuantely, that's the role he's largely been given.

[Brian Henderson]

Nothing wrong with that really. What I hate is that he takes expensive antique wood and shoots it full of holes, pretty much ruining the wood and the furniture.

Come on, that wood is in VERY short supply, don't waste it!

[Brian Henderson]

Nobody ever said otherwise. In fact, people have talked a lot about his multi-router and his aircraft carrier jointer.

I think the point here is that Marks uses power tools when it's necessary and he often shows alternatives to using them. Norm uses power tools because they're there and if they weren't there, Norm really wouldn't know what to do with himself.

[Brian Henderson]

There are plenty of shows where he'll say "we put this aside for a week" or whatever, particularly when working on different finishes. You know, the few he doesn't use tung oil on. ;)

Indeed he does and he makes his living doing it. Norm makes good stuff too. It isn't the skill or the knowledge of the woodworker, it's how the knowledge is presented.

[D. J. Dorn]

But they are there - I don't see a reason to use handtools simply for the sake of saying "Look at me, I use hand tools". I'm in this hobby because I like to build things. The pioneers would have used a homelight if they'd have had them and the Shakers built one of the first machines available doing tongue and groove assembly without having to do it all by hand. They were also the first to use steam power for lathes and the inventors of the round saw blade.

If you want to use hand tools because your hobby is old world craftsmanship, fine. I simply don't understand the need to bash those that prefer to use more efficiency to save time. If it took me eight months to build a table, I'd find a different hobby. Pocket hole jigs, tablesaws, jointers and bandsaws were made to be used.

Don

[Lee Gordon]

Sorry, but this represents a profound misunderstanding of how television works. Norm is not the boss, he is an employee. To be sure he is a well compensated, high profile employee but he is not the one who decides what projects will be made or what tools will be highlighted in any given program. I imagine he has some input but it is not based upon some sweetheart deal he has with Delta or Porter Cable. To be fair, this does not invalidate your assertion that the tool manufacturers influence the content of the show. I would be naive to believe otherwise. I'll bet that Masterpiece Theater (underwritten by Exxon-Mobil) is not about to do a dramatic recreation of the Exxon Valdez oil tanker disaster any time soon either. It's just that Norm is not the culprit.

Longtime viewers of NYW know that Norm often uses different methods to accomplish the same end. And believe it or not, he does use hand tools although I concede that more often than not he uses power tools (LRod could probably give you the exact ratio ). However, the program is not called the OLD Yankee Workshop; it's the NEW Yankee Workshop. And apparently some people fail to understand that "new" in this case refers to demonstrating new ways to achieve woodworking results. Quite often that means using new tools. And that's what attracted Delta and Porter Cable to the show in the first place.

Lee

[LRod]

Actually, I can't, quite (thanks for the nod, though). However, I do have a section in the Tools category labelled Neanderthal. It's not large, but they're there.

Regarding the previous poster's assertion about " one $1000 machine after another" I got to thinking about it and tried to grasp how many tools he has that actually cost $1000 or more. There's the TimeSavers sander, of course. And the Hitachi resaw. And of course the Unisaw--the cornerstone of the shop. The RAS, too, and the DJ-20. Maybe the DC-380. Ah, and the new lathe. I suppose the dust collection system probably is, too. Then I ran out of $1000 tools.

With the exception of the TimeSavers and the Hitachi, it seems to me that no one would begrudge the presence or use of any of those tools in even a just reasonably equipped shop. I mean we're talking tablesaw, jointer, planer, RAS, DC, and lathe--basic tools. Very good basic tools, but basic nonetheless.

It just doesn't make sense. Ah! That's it. Norm bashers don't need sense. They just need to bash.

- - LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

[Larry Jaques]

On 4 Jan 2005 18:29:48 GMT, [e-mail] (Jeffrey Thunder) calmly ranted:

Oh, yeah? Ask Joni "Paved Parking Lot" Mitchell about that.

You should know better, Jeffwy.

- In nature's infinite book of secrecy a little I can read. -Shakespeare ------

Website Application & Database Development

[John]

LRod

Last year they were running a contest to "Win Norn's Workshop" which basically was a win the tools. Of course, the Wide Belt Sander and that Resaw bandsaw were NOT included, but the bottom line is the contest rules (fine print) said that the estimated value of the tools was right around $20k.

And as you enumerated, one could put together pretty much a comparable shop for probably under $10k. Considering most folks would NOT be doing this in one big chunk, it really ISN'T economically prohibative if one actually uses the tools to build "stuff", but for the person debating about getting into woodworking, and not sure if in a year or so he will still be woodworking to any real extent, it only makes sense to start slow, and in that case, a good cabinet saw is a GREAT START as the cornerstone of a shop, and holds it's resale value pretty good - all things considered

John

[Bob Schmall]

Aha! J.S. Mills' Utilitarianism rears its head again! Where's our Court Philosopher? Watson! You're needed here.

Bob

[LRod]

Of course the trick there is that they ALWAYS value the product at MSRP so that they can get the full write off (all Seinfeld fans can start the "write-off" dialog here), vs the street price that we, the great unwashed pay. My post, naturally, related to the street price. MSRP is for suckers (Seinfeld fans can...).

As far as the majors are concerned, yes. If your (or anyone else's) shop is like mine, however, when you start adding up the routers, jig saws, circular saws, drills, sanders, chisels, planes, bits, etc. you can easily double or triple that number.

- - LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

[Lee Gordon]

I distinctly remember Norm giving Steve Thomas a tour of the shop (it might have been on TOH, not NYW) and mentioning that the TimeSavers was a loaner.

Lee

[George]

Lee, it's not going to make any difference to reiterate fact, as you can see from the thread. It's envy, pure and simple which drives comments like this. Norm must "pay his fair share" in the words of another continuous envy sentiment. If he has more tools, it's obvious he uses them poorly - with the implicit suggestion that the critic could or does do so much more. All gains are ill-gotten, all praise undeserved, all information inaccurate unless it originates - with the poster.

[Terry Sumner]

, all information inaccurate

That's kinda like the fact that no ther driver on the interstate is travelling at the correct speed...except you! :o)

Terry

[Edwin Pawlowski]

No true. The guy following patiently behind me is traveling at the right speed.

[Duane Bozarth]

Edwin Pawlowski wrote: ...

Unless, of course, he's at exactly the same speed and only 2 car lengths behind as some do... :(