You notice I didn't say the tool wasn't a good tool...
I _still_ think they're overpriced, though, and that their marketing plays into the elitist club thing. W/ sufficient markup on individual tools, they don't need the tremendous volume. Great for them if they can continue to make it work.
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Festool has been around for a very very long time, just not in the spot light until some what recently. I suspect that if the pricing policy did not work it would have been changed many years ago. Fortunately the pricing policy affords the dealer the ability to get involved with the customer more so that other brands.
Leon wrote: ...
Think??? :)
What they've done is go from the pro-only to the high-end consumer and hobby market (in the US). W/ that they've used the "elitist touch" quite successfully to move the talk from "damn! that's expensive" walk away to the discussions like this one--"tha's a damn fine tool even at that price.".
I _still_ don't think they're actually _worth_ the premium, but as you say, it's a model that seemingly works for them.
Elitist marketing causes buyer's remorse once the item is in use. It works great in the short run. Where's the Festool race car?
This elitist marketed tool has a no questions asked return policy, still available AFTER you use the tool heavily. But the reality is many Festool buyers are repeat customers. How many other tool manufacturers have the confidence to offer a 100% money back guarantee?
Don't you think all the pros (where a tool is simply overhead) who use them would have returned them in favor for the 1/3-1/2 price competitor?
Why would the same guys buy more of them?
I'm not talking about yuppies who never use the stuff except as a collection to walk the buddies through, but the guys who often work alone, with nobody to impress. I'm also not talking about the guys who hang out in front of Home Depot and hack together storage sheds, vinyl siding, and basic decks.
I own zero Festool products right now, so I'm not justifying my own purchases. It's just that every one of their tools I've fondled has been a fantastic item with advances, creating real value. Kinda' like a powered version of a Lie Nielsen tool.
I thought LN was elitist, until I used one...
And for you and many others the brand very well may be a waste of money. Personally I think Skil and Ryobi are over priced.
Think maybe they took a page from book of their neighbor Mercedes?
Lew
How about that! Something Leon and I agree on :-).
Lew Hodgett wrote: ...
Yep...I had thought that precisely, actually...
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People buy Mercedes for functionality? Status symbols, maybe? As cars go, they're not all they are made out to be.
You think people buy Festool as a status symbol?
You think people buy Festool as a status symbol?
You tell me.
Lew
Okay then:
How would people know you bought any? You don't park them in front of your house for all to see. Nobody really knows what the hell a Festool is. The few that know are hardly a big enough audience to try to impress. Personally, I bought that product because it is outstanding. And that is a helluvalot more than I can say for Mercedes.
How would people know you bought any? You don't park them in front of your house for all to see. Nobody really knows what the hell a Festool is. The few that know are hardly a big enough audience to try to impress.
Sure, you're right. But, under the right circumstances, one person is a big enough audience to try to impress. Given the chance to show off a new tool to woodworking buddies, most people would go for it. I'm not embarrassed to say that if I had some woodworking friends in my workshop, I'd likely pull a Festool Domino out of its case to show it around. It wouldn't come close to the status symbol of a new car sitting in the driveway, but it would still make me feel good to show off a new toy ~ a new toy that most others wouldn't have.
Does that make me out to flaunt status symbols? Maybe, but it would be a status symbol that I'd also be using when opportunity called for it. Maybe the difference is that I like to use my status symbols, not just put them out solely for display purposes.
I can't understand that parallel, either.
How bout that, Larry. ;~) One of the two of us is not totally unreasonable. LOL
Swingman had to sit through my presentation of my Domino. I don't think he had to cringe too much. :~) It was pay back, he showed me his Multrouter first. LOL
Late again to a thread but here goes.
Re: Marketing to Elitists
When I find a tool or machine that works as well or better than the tool or machine I'm currently using - and it's notably eaiser to use and faster (those two go together), I'm very interested. If I buy it and it doesn't live up to expectations I tell other woodworkers who are considering getting one why I personally was disappointed by the tool or machine. And if it meets or exceeds my expectations I tell other woodworkers who are considering getting one why I personally like the tool or machine. In either case, I try to provide emperical data to support my opinion of the tool or machine.
In the case of the DOMINO, which is often perceived as merely a very expensive biscuit cutter, I try and educate woodworkers who have a need for a tool like the DOMINO. The motivation is to provide information that may be useful to a purchasing decision. It's not a show off thing - "look what I can do that you can't" or "look what I have that you don't" - I enjoy helping people, to be of service to others - it just seems the right thing to do.
So let's look at the DOMINO, what it can do and leave the "Is it worth it? up to others to decide.
The mortise and tenon is a great joint - but it takes some time, knowledge, skills, abilities and tools to make them. If you lack any of it's requirements you probably won't use them often, if at all. So you go with pocket screws and/or biscuits, maybe even dowels. Each will hold two pieces of wood together end grain to side grain - square to each other. But each alternative involves a compromise - in strength, appearance or both. How much compromise you're willing to make is up to you.
Since cutting the mortise part of the mortise and tenon joint is the most time consuming operation if done with mallet and chisel, a chisel and bit mortising machine can get you over that excuse for not using M&T joinery. Most drill presses either come with a "mortising accessory package" - adapter, chisels and bits, some sort of fence and hold down. That makes cutting mortises a little easier and a little quicker
- but not by much.
A little dedicated bench top chisel and bit mortising machine does the job a bit quicker and quite bit easier than the "drill press add on" - and they're not prohibitively expensive/ BUT - a really good dedicated chisel and bit mortiser - one with a 3/4 hp or more motor, nice beefy guides and ways, a long stout handle, a larger, solid table and fence and a good hold down and hold in system to keep the stock in place, PLUS some easily set left/right stops - makes the job SO MUCH EASIER
- to set up and use. Add an XY table, with in/out stops you can easily set, and the job of cuttng mortises gets even easier
- and more likely to be used.
Now a dedicated horizontal boring/mortising machine will make cutting mortises even easier and faster - and can be use to make the tenons as well.
OR - a router based mortising jig will make cut mortises quicker and easier.
But - after you've done a bunch of mortise and tenon joints and appreciate this joint - and have a way of quickly and easily cutting the mortises - in both side grain AND - with a horizontal boring/mortising machineor router and jig - it soon becomes obvious that an integral tenon on each end of the "tenons" part a) wastes nice wood - the tenons won't be seen b) is a high risk thing - blow a tenon and you have to make a WHOLE NEW PART c) isn't necessary if you can mortise the part that would normally REQUIRE a tenon and go with a seperate loose /floating tenon. Just as strong if not stronger and it can be made from scraps you'd probably otherwise throw away or burn. AND - the loose/floating tenon part can be of some other wood - perhaps a stonger/harder wood if it's size must be small.
So - traditional mortise and tenon joinery gets replaced by loose/floating tenon joinery, the mortises all done with a router and jig or a horizontal boring/mortising machine.
Now if you went the mortise and tenon route, starting with saw, chisel and mallet then upgraded over time through the mortise cutting machine or machine and jig you'd have spent as much or more than the whole DOMINO package - AND you would've spent hours of tedius and sometimes irritating time setting up and using the tools, machines and jigs that the DOMINO makes unnecessary.
If you were an advanced beginner, or an intermediate woodworker (enough experience to appreciate what the DOMINO does FOR you) wouldn't you want this tool? Not because it's REALLY EXPENSIVE or LOOKS REALLY REALLY COOL - but because it will enable you to make more and better pieces quicker and easier.
So "spreading the word" - for me - is more "evangelical" - here's a better way. I'm a DOMINO Evangelist. I'm also a JoinTech Cabinet Maker Router Table System and AKEDA dovetail jig sytem evangelist. These things do things other tools and machines CAN do- but do them quicker, easier and more accurately. In the case of the JoinTech, it also does things nothing else can do, at least not anythng I can afford. If I can "enlighten" a woodworker I've done my job. If that person "converts"
- that's THEIR choice.
Elitist I'm not. Helpful - well I'm working on that one.
charlie b
How would people know you bought any? You don't park them in front of your house for all to see. Nobody really knows what the hell a Festool is. The few that know are hardly a big enough audience to try to impress. Personally, I bought that product because it is outstanding. And that is a helluvalot more than I can say for Mercedes.
The key word is "perception" or "perceived value".
They are not selling the steak, they are selling the sizzle.
It just so happens it is also a pretty good steak.
To pull it off, they need only to create the need in the gut of the buyer.
Lew
On Feb 22, 10:18=A0pm, r payne wrote:
Some of the features on some of the Festool tools probably justify the twice the price. The circular saw and guide rail system and the Domino are the ones I think have unique features you cannot find elsewhere. So for them its twice the cost of nothing. No one else has a tool with those features. (I know several brands recently came out with plunge saws and guide rails as mentioned in another thread.) Some tools like the jigsaw and some of the sanders, its hard to justify the twice the price. I have one of their orbital sanders and its nice. But twice as nice? Jigsaw is a jigsaw basically. Some rave about the Rotex sander. Maybe it is a unique sander and justifies the twice the price. Haven't used it. I recall an article on cabinet installation in Tools of the Trade by the bearded skinny Rhode Island guy. He used the Festool cordless drill. The $400+ one with the eccentric and 90 degree chucks and removable chuck to make it a very short maneuverable 1/4" hex driver. I don't install enough cabinets to justify a tool that has useful and unique features like the cordless drill. But he might and the tool cost is immaterial when installing $50,000 kitchens once a month. Those extra features more than pay for themselves. I like the circular saw and guide rail. But if I was a framer/roofer cutting OSB for sheathing I would have no need for the Festool accuracy. A 2x4 guide rail is more than good enough. Or a freehand cut is good enough with enough experience. So a roofer/framer would have no need for the Festool circular saw unique features. But someone who does not have a sliding panel saw may be able to get similar results, but slower, with the Festool when cutting hardwood veneered plywood. Maybe comparing the Festool circular saw to a sliding tablesaw is a more appropriate comparison than a sidewinder saw. Maybe.
No I don't think people buy tools as a status symbol. I believe most of us buy the best we can afford taking into account the amount of use, our skill levels and whether we are DIYers, avid hobbyist or professionals. And we do have to take into account our income.
If it was bought to flaunt it would be pretty dumb IMHO, but if it is used that is different.
It's like buying a 4-wheel drive to get to and from work in town where it rarely ever snows, and has never had mud on it.
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