I've seen a bunch of well reasoned, experienced posts & replies regarding solid surface counter tops, and how there are these great arts & mysteries regarding the successful installation of said beauties, and how other countertop materials all pale in comparision to these wonders of modern chemistry...
Assuming the hubris which often inhabits these regions (the notion that 'I can do _that_')...
Assuming that one already has sufficient tooling and skills to build the cabinets in the first place...
Is there a solid surface material available for use by folks unwilling to sign up to be a countertop fabricator by trade, and go off to school for some multiweek course of instruction?
Because for the prices quoted for solid surface (installed) around here, I can install 6/4 Honduran Mahogany, and replace it every five years, if needed. Laminated hard rock maple. Several varieties of Central American hardwoods. Granite is often cheaper.
Why is it that this year's chemistry experiment, which may or may not be an improvement at all, is so premium priced, and available in such a limited channel?
When I first decided to install solid surface countertops, I ran into the same thing. They almost had me convinced that there were some esoteric skills needed to work with the stuff, and that they were doing me a favor by protecting me from my own naivet=E9. I also asked about an edge treatment I had in mind involving wood laminated with the material, and was told in a patronizing tone that it wouldn't work, and that I really needed to leave the design details to the professionals.
I poked around and finally found someone willing to sell me some stock out the side door. Now over ten years later, the two countertops I did myself with my edge detail are still in great shape.
I can tell you that the material is no harder to work than a dense hardwood. The only thing that might be a little tricky is making seams disappear.
have no idea what this stuff is or how it compares to any of the others mentioned here. Just happen to run across it while nosing around one day and bookmarked it.
I did a fair amount of solid surface stuff in the early and mid eighties. When the specialty shops really got into it I got out. They could produce and install the job for less than what I could buy the materials for. We were both buying from the same supplier - he in truckloads, me by the sheet.
I was trained in only two products; Avonite and Corian. These were the major providers in my area at the time.
During my last five to seven years in the cabinet business I saw most of my high end kitchens go to granite, because you could buy a number two granite installation for about the same price as a solid surface job.
I'll tell you a story that I find to be interesting.
When I went to Avonite school at our local distributor (who also handled Corian) we were taught things like; not to use a saber saw to make sink cutouts, not to butt joints that were only cut with a saw and not routed off smooth, not to leave an inside corner in a cutout that wasn't of a specific radius, not to bed a cooktop without using a specific 3M tape, etc.
We did a kitchen with an Avonite top and it failed at a joint. Both myself and the other mechanic on the job had been through the Avonite school and followed the recommendations religiously. But the seam failed.
Avonite sent out two 'specialists' from California to fix the job.
They cut the material with a hand circular saw and didn't clean the joint up with a router. They cut the sink out with a saber saw and did not use the prescribed radius. They did not wipe the joints down with alcohol prior to making the joint. They belt sanded the joint flush. And they didn't use that special 3M tape, neither.
Then they declared the project to be fixed and sought to backcharge our company.
We neglected to pay the bill.
Six months later there was a TSB explaining that joints that were made near a window that received full sun for a specified portion of the day (defining our condition entirely) were prone to failure, if the heat gain was sufficient.
I don't know about you but I'd like to use a material that isn't so fussy.
Check your granite prices.
Tom Watson - WoodDorker tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
As the Avonite of yore was, and mostly still is, a polyester product, it is not indicative of the much better performance of acrylics and their adhesive technology. The cohesion, as opposed to adhesion, that takes place in an acrylic joint, is a magnitude stronger than a joint in polyester where cohesion is not possible. I have made warranty repairs on other fabricators' Avonite (and early Wilsonart Gibraltar, then a polyester) where the joint let go without any fault of the fabricator. It is simply a bad system.
The only time I will fabricate a polyester Avonite Studio Collection is when it involves no joints in the deck itself. Some of the patterns of Studio Collection Avonite are bloody gorgeous, but still scary stuff from a mechanical standpoint. Avonite Formstone is made by Aristech as well as and identical to Wilsonart Gibraltar as they are both acrylics. Some of the colours are identical. Wilsonart changed the formulation from polyester to acrylic and spent 70 million fixing the polyester countertops some of which catastrophically failed under normal use and for no apparent reason.
There are no restrictions on any acrylic solid surfaces in my product line-up in regards to joints/seams exposed to direct sunlight.
No, Lew, I am not. I'd hazard a guess that the bulk would be acrylic. DuPont Corian, Wilsonart Gibraltar and EarthStone, Staron by Samsung are all acrylics. Staron was the second largest seller in the US next to Corian.
No, it is acrylic. Probably the purest acrylic formulation of them all, Meganite is a close second, virtually impossible to tell apart, even by a trained chemist.
The adhesives are usually acrylic-based, even for bonding polyester. Methyl methacrylate hardened with polyisocyanate-based compounds. (Forgive my spelling) Like the original polyester material used to make the counter top, it is exothermic during hardening. Polyester is the binding agent that binds the aluminum trihydrate together.
There are fibres in there as well.
To give it some mechanical 'tooth'. Not done by better body people.
It does bond quite well to metal if the metal is properly prepared with course sandpaper and cleaned with methyl hydrate.
Big things are happening with cost. Currently Corian is holding up the prices. The big box stores are then making their mark-ups.
If I can buy similar material for 40% less, will I pass all of those savings to a customer, or will I get 10% below the Corian price, vastly increasing my margins and still make the deal? I have had customers insisting on Corian, regardless of price. They have the rep.
Granite needs to be sealed, granite in many cases will have seams. Granite colours are limited. Granite does not have a 10 year warranty. Many people don't like the shine of granite. Granite won't give you a totally seamless transition to an undermount sink. Granite's big enemies are oils and germs. There are nooks and crannies where salmonella can hide. You can't use bleach to sterilize granite, it will stain. When granite cracks after the 90-day - 1 year warranty expires, it cannot be repaired. It cannot be refinished in-house and it can and will scratch over time.
Is a quality granite gorgeous? You bet. Do you know there are 3 different grades of some of the colours? Not all Tropical Browns are created equal. I sell granite, i don't have the diamond beam-saws to deal with it...or the back-muscles.
I find the spread much greater than that... at least here. Corian and granite are neck on neck in the Borgs, I'm way lower in price.
Robatoy wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@nr-tor01.bellnexxia.net:
Thanks, Rob. The Reader's Digest version is then that the 'product' is a combination of the materials, distribution, fabricator, after-care service and warranty obligations, all wrapped up into one.
Personal observation and speculation:
Good fabricators are worth their rates. Finding one, however, is as difficult as finding a good surgeon. Most folks don't need them particularly often.
Pricing seems to be an oligopoly, with pricing leadership followed pretty closely, and no one having a great incentive (or opportunity) to make a huge volume move.
Fears of repetitions of the M problems do two things: 1) Induce folks to consider 'better brands', whatever those are said to be, and 2) Allow 'new technology products' to be introduced into the market, which purportedly 'solve all of the problems of the old product'. Maybe.
So, from what you've said, there will be no DIY acrylic 'solid surface' product available to me. OK. Sounds like porcelain tile and epoxy grout are the better option for me. My Turbo Volvo is getting a few miles on it. ;-) And charity begins at home.
Now if you weren't 3000 miles away from San Francisco, we could haggle a bit, perhaps.
Thanks for the well written insight and history lesson. That's what I was looking for.
Before you throw in the towel relative to DIY solid surface, perhaps you might want to check out the following website from an LA company:
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what I can tell they are selling Chinese-made product called Montelli. While it may sound a little foolish to deal with a Chinese company with an Italian name, the company is actually owned by Dupont USA (also the makers of Corian). Anyway, it is not clear to me if it is an acrylic or polyester based product, but I notice that it uses the same adhesive as is used with LG's HiMac SS. So presumably, it is chemically similar to LG's material. In any event, they are pricing 30" x 120" x 1/2" at $180 each which seems pretty reasonable. Moreover, if you are in CA, you might be able to pick up the product and save on shipping.
While I recognize the expertise of Robatoy as a professional installer and the importance of his reputation to his customer base. However, if you are doing this as a DIY project, you're really only accountable to yourself. Therefore, you might consider a polyester-based material even if it does not meet everyone's standards. (FYI - both Home Depot and Lowes sell LG HiMac, so polyesters can't be that inferior or these large chains will have some real customer relations problems in the future.)
When I retired from the Foreign Service, I decided to buy in a less expensive area of the U.S. (western PA). I bought a larger, older home that needed updating. Among the DIY projects were the renovation of a large kitchen and 3.5 baths. Like you, I could not afford a professional installer, but decided to learn solid surface fabrication. With no disrespect for those professionals in the business, I think that the expertise demanded by the trade is somewhat overstated. In my opinion, in terms of precision and effort, there is far more concentration and planning needed in construction of a set of dresser drawers than the average SS kitchen countertop. In fact, a lot of the larger installers have invested in computer-driven manufacturing tools that do all the intricate measuring and cutting.
Much of fabrication of larger tops is the preplanning of how one will join the various pieces to ensure that seams will not break over time. Robatoy has pointed out many of the common mistakes (such as seaming tops over unsupported spans such as dishwashers, etc.). Another consideration if one is working on, say, an L-shaped counter that the seam is not put right at the intersection of the "L". Typically, seams are best located on straight stretches of counter, so that one can ensure that the top and edges can be machined and polished to remove any visible trace of a joint. SS work, like woodworking, involves measuring and measuring again to ensure that large cut pieces actually line up when glued together. If, for example, one is doing a large L-shaped counter and when the pieces are mated, your 90 degree angle is really 85 degrees, then the top may not conform to the kitchen wall. The SS tool investment for me was limited to some specialty router bits, a hotmelt glue gun, a SS glue gun and a range of abrasives needed for sanding and polishing the stuff. Adhesives, of course, are matched to the material and color being fabricated and run about $20/tube.
In conclusion, I must say that working with SS material is really quite fun and rewarding. One is especially pleased when the final details have been completed and the spouse is all excited with her new kitchen or bath countertop. I've even been asked by friends and relatives to do work for them. However, I don't recommend this, because it is much more difficult working in another person's home. One will also soon realize when doing SS, that the entire process is very labor intensive, so I don't fault Robatory for charging what he does.
LG HiMacs is acrylic and a pretty good grade at that. The fact that a manufacturer suggests the same adhesive as LG, doesn't mean much as almost all use the same adhesive on either polyester or acrylic.
The distributors don't see it that way. They, in most cases, sign deals with the manufacturers who are quite anal about the warranty issues. They'd rather pass than get involved with the general public. They really do need to support their network of fabricators. OSHA, Elmer the Safety Elephant and HazMat-type folks have a bit to say about the distribution of the adhesives as well. I do not know to what extent that plays a role in the US, but here, in Canuckistan, it does. Ground transportation only.
[snipparized for brevity]
I have always liked working with the stuff. When thermoforming (something which cannot be done with polyester) the creative juices flow. A full 1-1/2" bull-nose around the perimeter of a kidney-shaped island sure looks pretty cool. There are so many applications for that material. A counter top is but one application.
My comment about accountability and DIY has nothing to do with what SS distributors believe. The point I was trying to make to Patriarch is that if he should find a source for his SS project, it may be not that important that he limit his search to just acrylic materials. It might be that for one's own countertops, the after-sale warranty is just not an issue. If he can find someone selling a polyester product at a low price, perhaps that will fill the bill. After all, I doubt that any supplier (of acrylic or polyester based SS) is going to extend its warranty to a non-certified installer. Therefore in his case, he really is on his own no matter what the material used in the project.
Just out of curiosity, how long does it take for a bad seam to fail? Specifically, will a failure appear in a week or two or does it takes months or even years? Most of my work is only about a year old, so I have no point of reference on this subject.
As a DYI he SHOULD focus on acrylic as it is far more forgiving than polyester in terms of fabricating and transporting. Simple tasks such as carrying the sheets is far trickier with polyester as that stuff can break in your hands for no obvious reason whatsoever. Acrylic is less brittle.
See above.
When I do a seam, I use a 'True-Match' bit (wavy bit) to lengthen the glue-line. After the seam is set-up, I adhere a 3 1/2" wide bevelled backer strip onto the back of the seam. In the case of an on-site seam, I glue that on at the same time as the seam. I have never lost a seam. I have, however, repaired other fabricator's seams ( I'm a warranty depot for some of the products). In most cases, they were installed in new construction and wall/cabinet movement played a part in the seam's demise. Seams don't 'just let go'. If yours are a year old, and the structure isn't moving around, you'll probably won't have a problem. I'm assuming you didn't over-clamp and squeezed out most of the adhesives.. in which case..it's a time-bomb just waiting for the right jolt/temperature........
My solid surface cost a lot less than 10% less than granite.
I don't like Granite because it requires periodic sealer and because it can't be repaired. I do like the polished look, but how the long will that polished look last?
Robatoy wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@nr-tor01.bellnexxia.net:
Another gotcha! I like in expansive soil, seismicly active SF Bay Area. I can jack, brace & stiffen the house structure all I like, and the earth still will move seasonally, and also randomly. So the house has some 'give' built in, and we patch (small) sheetrock cracks at the joints, and live with it.
I'm thinking that this is going to be more trouble that the benefits attributed to it. That's my excuse, and I'm sticking to it! ;-)
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