Design for my garage shop

[dpb]

Bill wrote: ...

Again, I ask...how large a DC, TS and compressor to you really envision having? Look realistically at how much current those are drawing an compare to 30A...

I'm not saying you should have only one, I'd surely recommend at least two but I'd definitely not be putting only single-dedicated outlets on each for a dedicated purpose.

But you certainly are correct in that while you're doing major work the cost of an additional circuit or two including the breaker isn't huge...

I'd cut back evenly to mid of adjacent studs for a matching location/seam to have a solid edge if the box is on top, otherwise if it's a major reno, it's a whole lot easier to just pull it all out and start from scratch. In a garage they may have used a plywood backer (which I like). And, surely now is the time to insulate as well...

Good luck...

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[Bill]

It's not that I thought these tools would exceed the load--I just thought their induction motors would "prefer it" if they were are dedicated circuits, much as I assume they would prefer to run on 240v rather than 120v. My BS, for instance, can run on either. It is definitely possible that my concern about this is undue--for I only know from what I read and my intuition.

Since the current main panel was put in as a repair 3 years ago (hail damage),and the wallboard was not replaced at that time, the wallboard and the panel do not fit together "like new". There are 2 or 3 small missing-wallboard gaps 1/4" wide and about 2 inches long. Hardly a big deal, but I may as well make it look like new, especially if I'm installing the sub-panel right next to it. Since I do not see a backer board in front, I assume there is one in back--as you suggested!

I almost hate to admit it but I am sort of excited about taking on some of these new challenges. Probably a couple hours of crawling around the attic will help me to curb some of my enthusiasm. Thank you for your help and for providing me with a few valuable insights today!

I imagine I'll spend a bit more time learning about all of the details I need to know (clamping, review codes, etc) and then eventually wire "everything" in about 2 days. Realistic?

Bill

[dpb]

Bill wrote: ...

Indeed, for such small motors as one is talking about here (and, yes,

5-10 hp is, indeed, "small") there's nothing going on that they'll have any clue (if they were, indeed, sentient as a metaphor :) ) whether the others are on the same circuit or not.

As for the 240V/120V, it's essentially the same; the only _real_ difference is that you halve the current at 240V which allows for the wiring to be at smaller gauge service to accommodate load instead of even more multiple circuits or larger wiring w/ its attendant higher cost and especially if were to go above #10 it's a lot more work/effort.

So, if that's the reason you've been talking of single circuit for every machine, you're definitely heading down the path for the wrong reason.

Again, not saying it's wrong to do so and overkill is better than under for future unanticipated desires, but there's a limit of "enough's enough" for just a casual shop.

As for the aesthetics question, given what you've described, I'd probably dismount the box and clean up behind/around it at the same time. Of course, if this is the primary feed panel, remember it's live unless there's an outside disconnect or the meter is pulled while you're doing this...

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[dpb]

dpb wrote: ...

...

As example, while it's intended as sorta' temporary (altho it's now been

10 years :) ), when returned to the farm and brought the ww shop w/ me, I wired an area in the barn that had been used as seed wheat bin for use as a shop. I added one 30A 240V circuit and one 20A 120V.

On the 240V is the PM66 TS, Delta 8" jointer, Delta 13" Model 13 (the old industrial style weighs 300+ not a lunchbox) and the DC and A/C (80-gal upright). I've never had even a flicker in use, what more trip the breaker for a startup load. The A/C was on another circuit but it was physically moved during the barn rehab project when needed to replace the west end floor sill plate since it was in the way and plugged into an extra outlet in the shop and I've never got around to putting it back where it was (and that's been approaching 5 years by now :( ).

From what you've said your ambitions are I can't imagine you'll have anything exceeding the above...

HTH w/ perspective.

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[Mike M]

I would do most of it through the walls just because its easier on your body. The main reason to run extra pipes to the attic is for the future needs that always come up so that you don't have to cut the wall covering.. A combination would be fine as well. Just remember to protect the wiring if your using sheathed cable or anything that could be punctured by a screw or nail. Another point that others have brought up is the advantage of keeping your outlets above 4' so they don't get covered up by sheet goods leaned against the wall.

Mike M

[Bill]

Just remember

I'll have to read up on the right way to approach this. Thank you for mentioning it! To me %-), It seems like the best protection is to know where the wires are. I read a suggestion somewhere to "sketch the layout of the wires". What sort of protection are you thinking of--I assume something that would lie in the attic rather than through the studs?

Thank you, Bill

[Bill]

It's only 3 years old, and you're darn right, it's live! A nice aspect of this project is it barely involves the main panel at all. I think I wish to respect this division.

What's to be gained from dismounting a 3-yr old box/wiring? The inside is clean as a whistle..

Bill

[Bill]

You are right. If I had not started this thread the day would have probably come when I would be left scratching my head wondering why the

240v plug on my TS (to be) wouldn't fit into the 240v 50A outlet I currently have. That would br about as funny as a flow of 0v out of an ill-fitting C'Breaker--this kind of stuff is a source of good comedy ... : )

Bill

[dpb]

If thru studs, place holes in center to maximize distance from each side to the cable(s). They make metal stud plates to put on the face of the stud over the hole location that are stout enough to tell installer "don't do that" when hanging sheetrock, etc. I 16d w/ a 20oz framer or pneumatic gun won't be phased, but there's little likelihood of that in finishing, obviously.

When running cable vertically in the cavity, it's to be fastened at the box and then keep it in the middle as well. A hollow cavity it can just be loose as then there's no restriction such it'll just move. If insulating, again keep it in the center of the stud and staple just to get it out of the way for insulating and you're good to go.

Surface mount is another issue, but doesn't sound like you're intending any of that...

All above, of course, assumes you're not somewhere like Chicago that local Code requires BX still or some other silliness...

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[dpb]

Bill wrote: ...

...

I thought you were complaining about there being broken/pieced sheetrock behind/around the box in question and were asking about how to pretty that up...my suggestion was based on that, and to do so I'd just temporarily unmount the box, put up a ply mounting board w/ neat edges to finish against and put it back...

If somesuch wasn't what you meant, sorry, we had a "failure to communicate" moment... :)

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[Bill]

Thank you. At this point, the panel is seated so that the lip of the top sets flush on top of the wallboard. I'm really not sure how the panel is secured, I thought it was typical to screw them into studs through the sides, but as large as it is, it seems likely that it is secured also on the back and/or on both sides. I was hoping to just replace the wallboard on top. Since it has to fit under the lip, it will require two pieces of wallboard unless I unmount the panel--and I hadn't considered that until you mentioned it today.

BTW, I mentioned that my desk was "surrounded by books" and I mentioned Hemmingway. I don't want that to misguide anyone. Basicly, most of my books are on either math, computer science, woodworking, or music. As I've mentioned in other threads, I'd like to build a few instruments some day. It appears that I'm going to see how to put up and wire a panel, install my own outlets, and put up some wallboard first--and at this point that's okay with me. The project seem quite in the general spirit of "woodworking" (to me). A chunk of free time would be helpful, and I'll get that in May.

Best, Bill

[Bill]

Thank you, this is very helpful. There isn't a problem insulating right up to the panels is there (all 4 sides)?

Bill

[Lee Michaels]

If going through studs, get some of those metal protective plates designed to protect the wiring. Just pound themon the stud and they are covered.

If going in the attic, realize over time that the wiring can get buried indust, etc. Ihave seen a couple attic wiring jobs that placed the wiring up in the air on boxes or had some kind of bright , warning type of ribbon around it. The idea is that if you don't go up therre for five years, you will have no problem finding the wires and working on them.

Along those lines, a wiring diagram, laminated in plastic, and tacked up where you can see it would be nice as well.

[Bill]

Lee,

A wiring diagram like that would be great! I made it part of my counter-offer that the sellers label the 2 dozen circuit breakers in the main panel (and I'm glad I did)! : ) There's one for each ceiling fan, the sump pump, and the list goes on... The wires are not labeled.

The "bright warning ribbon" idea you mentioned seems very good. I'll make that labeling process part of mapping out what I'm dealing with.

I stll haven't made that long trek accross all of the joists yet (though the length of the attic). My neighbor fell through his ceiling on one of his first treks... Why worry, I guess, it's only drywall! The house-inspector trotted right across.

Bill

[Swingman]

On 3/19/2010 7:05 PM, Lee Michaels wrote: \

Digital camera ...

... put the pictures on a CD, keep it as a reference, then give it to the next owner. It's what I do for all electrical, mechanical and plumbing rough-ins, and even framing, blocking, and shear wall nailing patterns.

Been doing it for years, and the simple practice has saved literally tens of thousands of dollars in re-do's.

[Mike M]

Like dpb said they make a nail plate. If you have 2x6 studs the center should be ok. Its also a code thing for 2x4's. On commercial jobs we labeled every box with what panel it was fed from and which circuits are in it.. Reommend the same for your shop. You can skip the panel id as you'll know it but labeling the breaker number on a receptacle can save you time. Used to do a lot of work for Kenworth truck and they maintained a cad drawing of the entire electrical system. We were assigned circuits and panels for what we were installing and labeled every junction box with the information.

Mike M

[Puckdropper]

Mike M wrote in news: [e-mail]:

Labeling the receptacle is a great idea! It's easy to take the cover off and check for an ID then turn the breaker box off. I'm never sure if the breaker will turn off the stairway light as well as the basement lights, but if the receptacle was marked I'd know for sure. (Naturally, I'd still test. It'd just save me a few trips to the breaker box.)

Puckdropper

[Bill]

You did a nice job of explaining that (about the wire size). I honestly thought that a malfunction in one tool on a circuit could possibly result in the damage to another tool on the same circuit. I considered the separate circuits cheap insurance and that's why *I* thought Lew suggested separate circuits (though he never actually said that). That's not the reason, huh?

Bill

[Nova]

Another thing I like to do it to use a permanent marker to write the circuit breaker number associated with each outlet or switch in an area next to each so that it's covered by the outlet cover/switch plate. It makes things a little easier when it becomes necessary to replace an outlet or switch.

[Steve Turner]

Yes! In fact, what would be wrong with having some obvious standard marking on every dang switch plate and outlet in the house that says exactly which breaker it's tied to? How many times have I done some wiring work and had somebody at the far end of the house yell to me that I've finally turned off the correct breaker after trying three or four others? We usually have to reset every clock in the house after that happens. :-)