Cope or Not Cope Crown Molding

I do crown molding for a living and today I went to the Woodworkers Show in Ontario California. There's a device this guy is selling called "Cut and Crown" and it looked interesting. 3 molded plastic jigs to hold your 3 different types of Crown making it easier and not having to move your saw blade. It looked good but he was just cutting the angles. No wall as a prop. These were basically inside 45's and he just glued them together, looked pretty tight. I asked him about coping and he got pissed off like I was raining on his parade and then ignored me. I told him I prefer to cope cause I like the tight fit on irregular wall surfaces specially on wide crown. I asked him how he cuts 8"crown he told me he likes using 2 4"crowns. Anyway anyone tried this system and when you install crown do you cope or use the cut codes in any good trim book to make your compound angles?
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wrote:

We cut most crown upside down on some size of miter saw depending on the size of the crown. When running crowns on ceilings we'll always cope. On cabinet tops we sometimes use miters since they can often be nailed though the joint from the back side. Also there are some installations where we might have lighting that will be installed behind the crown. In those cases we usually have to use miters since we can't have one piece run past the other either for space requirements or shadows.
Mike O.
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In perfect world with perfect trim that goes into perfectly square rooms that have perfectly square corners, you don't need to cope.
Or if you are like many that I know, 1/2" caulk relieves you of the responsibility of making a good joint.
I always cope. Every single time.
Robert
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

Yep and that's what Ive always done toooo. This guy selling this thing looked at me like I was the enemy. Guess I was stepping on his sales, but he sure had a group of sheep following his every move.
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But you have years of experience that help you cope with hard installations Robert!
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

I decided to try their "45* and glue-it" technique last time I did crown. (*or whatever angle was half the corner)
It lasted two joints. On a ladder, with a nail gun in one hand, the crown in the other, now I have to put CA glue on one end, spray the accelerant onto the other end, hold perfectly in place and hope it doesn't slip right before the cure.....
With coping, the coped piece can just pivot into the corner, and sort of lock itself in place with the curves on the molding. With a good saw, some stop blocks (or this: http://www.benchdog.com/crowncut.cfm ) and sharp coping blades, you get real fast at cutting those joints perfectly.
I actually used the CA and accelerant for the few outside corner joints. I previously would use hot glue, but the CA is thinner and doesn't squeeze out.
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

... and you have perfectly even, well regulated temp/RH, like in Pleasantville, USA.

Ditto ... have taught all my trim carpenters to cope, and which side to do it on, and insist that do, although it seems a foreign concept to south-of-the-border types as a rule.
If I find a mitered inside corner, and it won't be too damn expensive, they *will* do it over again, all the while blaming it on the helper. :(
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"I asked him about coping and he got pissed..." funny! LOL..

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Guess he couldn't cope with the question...
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I'm sure you've noticed that style over substance is what counts. It is more important to have crown molding than to have a proper installation. Granite countertops will sell a house faster than better framing that is hidden by sheetrock. Why make things straight when they have such good caulk on the market.
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Was it this set up? http://www.cutncrown.com/index.php
If you watch the video it is apparent that odd angles are not a problem as long as you measure the angle with the supplied angle finder and set the saw to that angle, what ever that angle is.
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The thing that would concern me is what happens when you nail it up... All this "scientific" methodology assumes that the corner and walls stay the same throughout the installation process. That isn't always the case as drywall isn't always screwed tightly to the framing and ceiling joists and the drywall tape may not lay tight in the corner and give. Insulation and vapor barriers often result in some drywall give in exterior wall and ceiling situations. With the cope joint if the "wall" moves the joint doesn't open up during nailing. Will an end grain glue joint put up with that, or do you end up with a chalk job?
Thoughts for discussion...
John
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John Grossbohlin wrote:

That was my concern to. He used a Super Glue and a accelerator spray. He really didn't address the wall not being straight, drywall tape, joint compound and etc.
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evodawg wrote:

I don't remember seeing any drywall in his display. All, perfectly straight and plumb joints and corners.
I almost asked if he would take all his stuff down to another end of the hotel where they were doing renovations so we could see the thing in real world conditions.
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Everything you wrote is accurate. When was the last time you saw a drywall corner that could receive a sharp 90 degree angle? With two 45's, you'll have to round off the miter cuts on both pieces to keep from tearing the corner tape. And like you said, I have yet to see a drywall corner that was nailed/screwed all the way to the studs. It's also rare to find a corner that doesn't ramp away from the wall from too much mud. All of these problems can be addressed with coping.
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Leon wrote:

Yes this was the same guy to. He does have an interesting product.
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Given the fact that walls are not straight the measured angles could be thrown off for ceiling crown moldings but this jig may really be a plus for getting fancy and adding moldings to furniture.
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I agree. I think it would be pretty spiffy for that.
But the downside for them is how many would they sell if it were marketed just to cabinet guys that made compound angle corners? Not many I would think. Cabinet angles are usually a walk in the park since the molding is small enough to nest in a small miter saw bed.
The other comment you made that I wholeheartedly agree with is how much time those things could save you. If you don't install a lot of crown, it is easy to get goofed up on your angles and positioning. I think if you were doing a few rooms in your house and that was all you really wanted to do, those things could really pay for themselves if you didn't understand the "flip it upside down and backwards then reverse the cut for the other side" explanation.
I have seen PILES of wasted trim with all manner of cuts on them while some poor fellow is trying to figure out how to cut the complimentary angle to the one he got right.
Robert
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wrote:

I usually solve that problem by cutting the second one first. ;)
R
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And then the third one second. Hey, it works for me. :)
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