Complexity of dyes in kitchen cabinets

[-MIKE-]

Best answer. The bottom line is, on 20 grand, be glad it's only $750.

[JoeSpareBedroom]

Sounds to me like the homeowner should ask that all ceiling light boxes be installed with whatever bracing is needed JUST IN CASE a fan is added later.

[-MIKE-]

If the fee is in the contract, there is no argument. It could be a legitimate fee to cover the costs of making all the changes, administratively, that a corporation has to do when they become a corporation, just to cover their butts. Or it could be that *plus* some just to keep clients from constantly making changes they consider to be "no big deal."

[Lew Hodgett]

----------------------- What about the electrical service feeding the fans?

Lew

[RicodJour]

A customer requested change is not a contingency item. It is an extra.

The OP is requesting a change, we have no idea what is involved in the change, but there is general agreement that a $750 charge for a couple of cabinets worth of changed stain is a "Whatchya talking about, Willis?!" Q&A session with the contractor.

To the OP, please post the contractor's explanation of the seemingly high charge when you get it.

R

[Robatoy]

Use ceiling scissors to cut a path for the wires later?

Might as well run some cat5 for special effects lighting later.

[JoeSpareBedroom]

Admittedly, I've been assuming that before he added another ceiling fan, there was already a plan place for a box in that same position, to service a light. In this case, the wiring would be the same. If not, then the $350 charge makes some sense.

[FrozenNorth]

Also had all lighting/fans been purchased? The guy needs to return an existing fixture and pick up a fan, that costs money, in addition to paperwork, time for the client to pick out the fan they want assuming they aren't all the same or worst case a special order style. Too many questions.

[Swingman]

"Shears", Rob! ferrcrisssakes, you can't charge enough for "scissors"!!

[Leon]

Then you are talking some where under $175 per light box. The extra ceiling fans include bracing and additional wiring for the fan and light to run separately.

[JoeSpareBedroom]

You're talking about materials. The OP was talking about ADMINISTRATIVE FEES.

[Upscale]

Don't know about the cost of $750 but I can envision a dye change costing extra money. At the very least, it means twice the amount of spray booth and spray gun clean up effort. It might also mean ordering and possibly another trip to the supplier for different dye. Might be the same gun being used for the job, so it would have to be thoroughly cleaned for a different dye. As you said, there's the administrative cost, new paperwork, ecetera.

[nailshooter41]

Reading this, it reminds me of how much I hate change orders. Clients think you are screwing them when you quote a price, unless it is free.

Your guys hate them since as single cell organisms they are forced to think around a new aspect instead of trudging through the day as they normally do. My primadonnas don't like them because as brain surgeons/skilled workers, they may not have their mind right.

(Funny... they can always get their mind right to and be imminently flexible to cover one of their screwups....)

When I do a remodel or extensive repair, I sit down and educate, teach, inform, and go over all aspects of the processes involved. That includes change orders. I always tell them that by they time they want to change something, they may be "too late", or that my answer will be "no".

To scare the absolute living crap out of them, I always end that part of the sermon with "of course, ALL things are possible with more money...."

I have remarkably few requests for changes to the proscribed work.

I did a few hundred thousand feet of office finish out in the 80's boom. I incorporated a pitch that I still use today based on my experience from that time.

Unless it is convenient to me and they are willing to pay for it, the answer is "no". I am not inflexible, but clients don't understand that good contractors work on a schedule, and the tighter the better.

They often times find some kind of ragged shit on sale somewhere, and want me to incorporate that into their work someway.

The ceiling fan is a great example. Say your client drags home a ceiling fan from the Borg and has to get it installed in the vaulted ceiling.

Let's take a look:

You know that your *approved* electrical plans say that they have the max allowed boxes installed before this fan.

So you need a new circuit.

You will have to make and submit an updated drawing to the City, that will take 10 more days to approve after you drive the plans downtown and pay the new plan review fee.

Your electrician has to crawl across scissored ceiling joists (scary!) filled with insulation and A/C lines to get to the new location of the fan. He blocks up the fan location, and runs another 50' of romex, and installs a new J box.

He runs the line to the wall over the circuit box, then drops it down to reach later.

He turns off all the power to the house, and adds a circuit breaker. He attaches the new line, and tests it for power.

He goes out to the truck and gets his extra tall ladder and sets up. He assembles the fan and hangs it.

He attaches the electricity and checks for proper installation. Installation complete.

So you have lost hours of your time creating and resubmitting a drawing, taking it to the code compliance office, and going over what you want from your electrician. You have cost of about 6 hours of electrician's time, a handy or J box, 50' of romex, a circuit breaker, and a couple more incidentals.

You may have also had to put off painters, cleaners, etc. in your schedule.

To me, $350 is cheap. Your people want a warranty! $350 is cheap. Should be $750 or better for something with new circuits, etc.

But their response? "But Robert, Home Depot says they will hang a fan for $125!"

Do you take them to contractor school to show them how you arrive at your numbers? Nope.

You just say "no, remember, we talked about this type of thing..."

I'm not that flexible anymore. I nail down everything, then get the machine in gear and on target. No distractions.

Unless of course I remember my own saying , "of course, ALL things are possible with more money...."

With enough we are all friends. Personally though, I would prefer NO change orders at all. I never nickel and dime clients, and I don't take it from them. If it is a substantial change, they are indeed going to pay for it.

Robert

[Jim Elbrecht]

I hate top-posting, but hate 1-liners at the end of long posts more.

I can't snip any of it because I think it is the perfect answer.

So, nailshooter, can you do a roof near Schenectady, NY next spring?

Jim

" [e-mail]" wrote:

[Lee Michaels]

wrote

There ya go. A scared shitless client is a good client.

I like your attitude/methods Robert. Communication is the key.

[Swingman]

From my basic contract:

1. There will no deviations from the work specified herein unless agreed to by Change Order in writing by both parties.

4.1 A Change Order is any change to the original plans and/or specifications. All change orders need to be agreed upon in writing, including cost, additional time considerations, approximate dates when the work will begin and be completed and signed by both parties.

[Swingman]

CHANGE ORDER ? COST PLUS Date:

Owner: Street Address City, State Postal Code Contact Telephone

Contractor: Company Address Company Phone

For the Project: Project Address:

The Owner authorizes the Contractor to make the following changes to the above project:

Description:

Attachments: The following is based on information provided by the contractor.

Contract Sum Original Contract Amount: $

Revised Contract Amount Prior to this Change Order: $

Cost for this Change Order: $

Multiplied by (Number) Percent = $

The New Contract Total including this Change Order: $

Contract Time:

Change in Contract Time for this Change Order: Days

Date of Substantial Commencement for this Change Order shall be: Date

[RicodJour]

1. CHANGES TO THE PROJECT, CONTRACT PRICE OR CONTRACT TIME

A Change Order is a written order prepared by the Contractor and signed by the Owner and Contractor, issued after execution of the Contract, authorizing a change in the Project, Contract Price or the Contract Time. The Project, Contract Price and the Contract Time may be modified only by a Change Order. Any change or proposed change submitted to the Owner for review and signature must be reviewed and finalized within a reasonable period of time.

Any changes not required by unforeseen conditions or beyond the control of the Owner shall be priced according to the Contractor's normal pricing policy, and shall include an administrative charge of $100. All Change Orders shall be priced prior to presentation to the Owner. No portion of the Project shall be suspended or delayed in contemplation of a proposed Change Order. The Owner shall make payment in full upon his signing of the Change Order.

If the Contractor is delayed at any time in the progress of the Project by any act or neglect of the Owner, his agents, or by any separate contractor employed by the Owner, or by changes ordered in the Project, or by labor disputes, fire, unusual delay in transportation, adverse weather not reasonably anticipated, unavoidable casualties, or any causes beyond the Contractor's control, or by delay authorized by the Owner pending mediation, then the Contract Time shall be extended by Change Order for such reasonable time as the Owner and the Contractor determine.

Any supplemental design work requested by the Owner shall be performed at a rate of $150./hour.

The Contractor does not anticipate any Change Order extras at the time of Contract signing, and will not request any Change Order extras, except for Owner requests, latent and concealed conditions, and required construction differing materially from the Contract.

And on a different topic, but still an all time favorite contract clauses:

The Owner shall not bring other contractors, onto the job during the course of the Project. If the Owner desires to have additional work performed by the subcontractor's hired by the Contractor within one year of Project completion, the Contractor's written authorization must be received prior to the start of the additional work.

R

[Leon]

Excellent example Robert!

But in my case, I'm the one wanting to add the ceiling fan, we were still waiting to see of our proposed price for the house would be accepted by the builder. Admittedly there are costs of adding to the plans and cost of labor and materials but nothing in the way of actual building the house had taken place yet.

Additionally the original prices for the ceiling fans were $150 each. To add the price of the extra fan was $150 + $175 for blocking and wiring+ $350 admin.

I was perfectly willing to pay the whole sum but the builder's salesman intervened before presenting me with those figures and "he" got the builder to waive the $350 admin fee.

[-MIKE-]

I had someone give me that line before. I smiled and said, "Oh that's fine, I fix their mistakes all the time, but I still charge the same, so you can pay both of us, or just me."