wifi question

[Robert]

And in practice ( Android phone) does the connection move ? I run 3 wifi networks in the house and switching is a pain at times. Was wondering about MESH

[T i m]

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According to Chris, yes.

I think that's the point, not so much coverage (but I think that's improved as well, over straight access points) but that if you are moving about a lot, it makes that more predictable. I think John Rumm has installed a Mesh system with a customer and the customer is happy?

Cheers, T i m

[John Rumm]

So far yup.

I did another one the other day - although on a much smaller scale (two APs). That was in a relatively small office where they could get good wifi signal strength everywhere with just the single conventional AP in the middle. What they could not get was anything close to decent data throughput or relaiability. The are quite heavily surrounded by other WLANS, and their existing kit (while decent) was 2.4GHz single band only.

So going mesh gave them all the modern toys like dual band with band steering, dynamic routing to the best AP. 802.11ac with beam forming etc.

It made a dramatic difference, now the wifi clients can saturate the FTTC broadband connection, whereas before they could not even manage 5 Mbps.

[Roger Hayter]

Presumably all the meshed APs need to share the same encryption secrets so that the client can continue its connection seamlessly; transferring the data stream back to the original AP would be very extravagant if they are radio connected? Do you know if this happens?

[John Rumm]

They do need to be configured with the same credentials (for at least one network at least). The data stream does not need to go to the original AP, although due to the dynamic routing of mesh systems its possible that it could if that appeared to be the best option. (especially if for example the original AP is the only one with a wired connection to the main router).

Many of the mesh systems can only support WPA style shared secret security rather than individual user based authentication systems like EAP. (although some of the business class mesh systems do - they are usually not able to interoperate with the "home" style platforms).

[Graeme]

In message [e-mail], T i m [e-mail]> writes

Speaking as a very 'non techie', I recently installed a mesh system at home. Installed means nothing more than plugging into the mains and pushing pairing buttons.

We now have the main router on a half landing, plugged into the main (and only) landline phone socket, together with two non hard wired repeaters, one upstairs and the other downstairs.

This laptop is in the kitchen, opposite end of the house to the nearest repeater, and fast.com reports my wi-fi speeds a few seconds ago as

74Mbps down and 17Mbps up, which is good enough for me. Installed a few weeks ago, and seems rock steady. We have various devices around the house (mobiles, laptops, iPads, mobiles (Apple and Android) and all just connect and work.

[T i m]

Cool ... so did it present a different SSID (Network name), different to the Router and did you reconnect everything to said new one?

Otherwise the router (non Mesh) would still be in the picture?

Cheers, T i m

[Graeme]

In message [e-mail], T i m [e-mail]> writes

Only one name appears on the list of 'Local Area Connections', and that name is the same as it always has been, although that means it is not possible to see whether a device is connected to the original router or either of the repeaters. The mesh must be working though, as the signal strength and speed is far better than in was, in areas that had a very poor signal without the repeaters.

Another noticeable difference is the printer/scanner which was connected wirelessly via a home plug, and was always a bit hit and miss. I did a factory reset and attached the printer, via wi-fi, to the router address (which I'm certain is actually one of the repeaters) and that too has been rock solid. Only a cheap and cheerful Canon inkjet, but it works.

My (limited) understanding is that devices see the wi-fi network as just one connection whether the signal is coming from any one of three signal 'broadcasters', and attach to the strongest signal, with the ability to change source as devices are moved around that house. That is probably a non techie over simplification, but it works.

[T i m]

Ok.

Agreed.

Well, the signal strengths are likely to be better (extra kit) but not that the 'Mesh' part was working fully (full movement around the location without disconnection), or if the two new Mesh devices were stronger signal than the router and so the router never provides a connection itself?

Cool.

Well, that would be nice but I'm not sure how a non-Mesh router could play part of that, unless the Mesh system can take a connection off the router seamlessly somehow?

I believe in the instance John oversaw they turned off the AP in the router?

Say the Mesh devices overlapped each other and both overwhelmed the AP in the router, maybe the router never actually takes any connections?

Well, that's the key but I would still be inclined to check to see if the router AP might still need to be turned of for fear of it taking a connection in some instances and then causing a mobile device to drop as you move away from it and to a Mesh unit?

Cheers, T i m

[Chris Green]

But would a 'non mesh' system with the same number of access points be just as good - that's the question.

[John Rumm]

With the right kit (and centralised management), it might be possible to include a non mesh wifi into a mix as park of a backhaul for a mesh system. (normally mesh systems expect one AP to be connected via ethernet to the main router - that becomes the mesh "root".

(but in the case I described it was a layer of complexity not required since he had an abundance of meshing APs).

[Graeme]

Within my limited knowledge of how these things work, the answer must be yes, but with the proviso that only the mesh system seamlessly switches devices from one source to another (i.e. always to the strongest signal) without any user intervention. But I may have misunderstood.

[Graeme]

In message [e-mail], T i m [e-mail]> writes

I don't think that is a current problem in this house, as we (self and wife) tend to use laptops and iPad in one place, most of the time. The real test will come when son next returns home as he uses his mobile all the time, all over the place. That will be the acid test. At present, it all works well for the two of us, and we're happy to leave well alone unless or until we notice a problem.

[John Rumm]

They will have different capabilities... mesh gives you self healing, and the ability to roll out a network with fewer (or no) cables. Individual hardwired APs might give you more throughput with lots of users. However both should let you saturate most broadband connections so in many cases its a moot point.

[T i m]

So Graeme's router AP could be that, or are you saying it would typically have to be a 'Meshing' device itself?

That's what I was thinking re my an uplift to my mates multi-AP solution, where (this sort of money) wouldn't be a solution.

I think I left it with only one port on the router being used, linked to the 24 port managed switch (he has IP CCTV) so if we disabled the router AP, a mesh unit connected there would cover a good chunk of the house.

If they could be obedient / sensible user self installed, I could connect to his laptop via TV and do any higher level admin if required / possible?

One directly on the router (router AP turned off), one on some Cat6 in the kitchen (replacing existing AP), another on Cat6 in the media room (replacing existing AP), another in the bedroom (replacing existing AP) and one on the end of a PowerLine extension to the au-pairs room (that is currently WiFi at the remote end that I would demote to Ethernet only)?

Graeme, what make / model did you use OOI please?

Cheers, T i m

[Graeme]

In message [e-mail], T i m [e-mail]> writes

T i m, the router is Fritzbox 7530 and the repeaters are Fritxbox 3000.

Ours came from Zen, who provide quite a good explanation here :

[John Rumm]

Generally yes, but that might just be a firmware upgrade. For example, with my Draytek 2862Vac, it currently does not do mesh. However a while back they released firmware update for it, so that it can become a mesh root. So basically you tick the box in the config to say "mesh", then tell it to look for any mesh devices. It will list any it can see in wireless range, and allow you to add them to the network. It then duplicates the SSID etc onto the new devices. It can manage them all as well, see what wifi clients are on each one, and tell you how many wireless hops away each AP is.

Yup

Possibly - depending on what kit you go for. The Deco units for example do their config via an app - and its fairly painless to talk the user though that. However once the first device is connected to the router, and you can see its IP address in the routers DHCP list, then you can also connect to that with a web browser and do stuff.

(if he has an android phone then you may also be able to remote control that - not sure if TV does that yet)

The draytek kit can also configure with an app, or via the router's web interface, or via their cloud based configuration platform (handy if you wan central control over multiple clients with multiple sites)

Having looked at a few more examples of the kit, unless its hybrid and designed to use multiple media back haul connections, you are probably going to find it easiest with one unit hardwired to the router, and everything else wireless.

[John Rumm]

Non mesh can do that as well - sometimes called AP assisted roaming. However many of the solutions are proprietary, so need the same range of kit all over.

[T i m]

Ah, that explains it, it's a Meshing router. ;-)

And ... <high 5's> Ftitxbox 7140 here that I've had for *ages*. ;-)

Makes sense. ;-)

Cool, thanks.

My only thought re my old 7140 (FonWan (2 x Sipgate Voip lines)) router is if the throughput might be limited nowdays (along with it being obsolete etc)?

Given how many routers others have been though since I've had mine, even though they aren't cheap, I might be tempted to buy another.

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

OOI, this suggests you can also use the Fritz!Box router as a mesh repeater (rather than it (automatically) being the master?).

Cheers, T i m