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[polygonum]

>>>>>> "Company officials say they had produced five litres of petrol in less

Article read. Before I posted.

I invite you to stop first.

[Doctor Drivel]

They say they can have a refinery sized installation in 15 years.

[David WE Roberts]

With regard to reading the article. The first part of the multi-phase system seems to be using a chemical scrubber to produce pure carbon dioxide from the air (or other source). Then electrolysis of condensed water to produce hydrogen. Then the carbon dioxide and hydrogen are used to make methanol.

So the first big question is - is this the most efficient way to produce methanol (also IIRC known as wood alchohol)?

This smacks of backwards research. We have all these wind farms which are producing energy which we cannot store and which we cannot distribute over long distances via the current National Grid. Can you come up with a way of storing this energy for long term reuse?

Hang on, it's easy to produce hydrogen but hard to store and transport it. Can we convert the hydrogen into something better? Yes - there's this process of combining carbon di-oxide with hydrogen to produce methanol. This is a base for other fuels. Oh, and it takes carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere so that scores us global warming points. Could be some nice grants for this!

Reading

suggests that spare electricity could possibly be used in conjunction with biofuel production. As the electricity which is thrown away is essentially 'free' this could be an economic source for heating in the distillation and drying process and the carbon capture could be used as a method of capturing the carbon dioxide produced by the fermentation. Did I just suggest that the industrialise the Essex and Suffolk coastline? Wash my mouth out (sorry, Lowestoft and Yarmouth, you probably like the idea).

Whatever, this does seem to be primarily aimed at long term storage of energy which would otherwise be discarded. This skews the economics because this is then potentially a marginal gain in total efficiency of a wind generation system. The question really is - can anyone think of a better way?

It certainly has to be measured against (especially when we start to talk about using the output of nuclear power stations) other industrial processes to convert carbon sources into fuel.

Or we just re-site our industrial plant close to wind power generators so they use all the available wind power and load balance using more traditional generating plant. However, given the outrage when wind turbines are installed, telling the country folk that we are now going to build some factories in the middle of areas of outstanding natural beauty to fully use the power from the wind turbines they didn't want in the first place may not go down well.

Whatever, not going to happen soon.

How about an alternative - electrify the motorways. This gives electric cars a long distance capability with them only going 'off grid' at the start and end of a journey. Smacks of '50s science fiction, but (assuming nuclear power) does get away from the reliance on fossil fuel.

Alternatively just ban petrol/diesel vehicles completely and use electrified public and commercial transport.

Cheers

Dave R

[Doctor Drivel]

Shale oil in North America. Reserves exceed know Middle East oil reserves. In most cases the oil shale fields are an extreme example, where the energy to release it is almost equal to the energy obtained. But much of the North American shale oil only needs to be warm to extract the oil. For the UK's oil demand only 5 nuclear power stations dedicated to extract the oil from shale. The oil can be put on tankers in the Great Lakes, half way across North America, and transportation is then much cheaper. We will not run out of oil quickly.

Internal combustion engined vehicles are an efficiency joke - the makers have done little to improve/replace these old crocks. Some condensing gas boilers are up to over 95% efficiency - burning natural gas at point of use (in the homes) is highly efficient. Having smaller, local, cleaner, natural gas power stations, again is far more efficient as there are less line losses - also waste heat can be piped to local homes (Combined Heat & Power). Most urban transport can be trams/electric urban rail. In Scandinavia, local stations are about 90% efficient as the waste heat is used. One station uses and underground heat store, to store heat in summer for winter use.

[Broadback]

I can dream. If it ever becomes feasible, or any other alternative to the present oil sources, then what a difference it will make to the Middle East countries, and of course Western Governments attitude to them. Roll on the day!

[Doctor Drivel]

This man is a dork !

[Doctor Drivel]

It is not. It is free.

[Doctor Drivel]

60 milion acres, 60 million people.

[Doctor Drivel]

He reads the Daily Mail.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Not methanol. Probably pentane or octane or summat.

I think that is more or less the way it goes. Anything that prolongs te essential fraud that is renewable energy is worth burning a few bob at to make a story out of. Because if people actually understood that renewable energy really doesn't work at all, they would be riots in the streets with people demanding their money back and the head of the polticians who 'believed' in it.

Well if you have to synthesise fuels with surplus elecricity, use off peak nuclear at night. WAY cheaper than renewables.

total waste of time money and energy

You are begining to see the way civilisation will have to go IF its going to go anywhere but down the pan.

Cheers

[Doctor Drivel]

The Middle East can be near 100% by-passed by using North American Shale oil. There are more reseves there than the Middle East.

But the western financial system is predicated on Debt. We are debt slaves all our lives to them. All these countries are in hock to US banks, so their oil will flow to ensure the debt will continue. Oil consumption world-wide is rising as China, etc modernise and industrialise and are insatiable for energy.

The west could turn its back on the Middle East, but the Far East will not.

[Doctor Drivel]

Tripe.

Tidal lagoons are viable. Britain should lead the world in tidal lagoons. It is largely a matter of dumping rock in the sea on an unprecedented scale. British engineers can manage that and the British Isles geography is the best in the World for such an undertaking have high tide range shallow seas surround it. It involves moving about 2500 million tons of rock from Wales to the Irish Sea. To create tidal lagoons to supply 100% of Britain's need for electricity The numbers are staggering but possible (a entire heavy train can move perhaps 500+ tons of rock so about 4 or 5 million train loads are needed). Domestic waste can be used being compacted between walls of rock. This will solve the waste problem for a number of years. Bridges can be on the walls running to the Isle of Man and Ireland. Fish farms can be inside the lagoons.

The UK then be 100% electric in all: trains, trams, vehicles, heating, etc.

[polygonum]

Funny that, I thought heavy (by which I mean, really heavy) trains had gone above 20,000 tonnes up to around 100,000 tonnes gross weight at the extreme. Even in the UK we have trains over 4000 tonnes. Seems awfully heavy if it can only carry 500 or so tons. So you can cut your trainloads by quite a margin.

[Alan Braggins]

[...]

Yes, methanol, as an intermediate stage. "The company, Air Fuel Synthesis, then uses the carbon dioxide and hydrogen to produce methanol which in turn is passed through a gasoline fuel reactor, creating petrol."

Or

"Air Fuel Synthesis build on these methods by turning the methanol into something more like petrol, using processes well entrenched already in the petroleum industry."

[Tim Streater]

You mean I get a car with a very tall pantograph? Cool!

[Doctor Drivel]

In the road - induction.

[Steve Firth]

"Doctor Drivel" wrote: [snip]

But nuclear fusion is only 15 years away.

[Doctor Drivel]

It is? Wow!

[meow2222]

Gap from transmit to receive coil too large to be workable Maintaining even spacing impractical No matter what frequency is used, the metal car body will absorb large amounts of power, getting burning hot Apart from that a great idea. Thank you drivel.

NT

[The Natural Philosopher]

of power, getting burning hot

Full size slot car racing here we come!

Or dodgems.