Using a 16A appliance in a 13A socket?



Yes.
Not saying it's a good idea, but it's allowed, with a fuse or breaker up to 16A.
Connecting the primary electric heating system (space or water) to a ring is not allowed though. Supplementary heating and small water heaters are allowed.
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Then I'd say a kiln would come under this in practice if not in name - since it's likely to be on for long periods.
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I've no idea what the warm-up period and duty cycle are, but you could well be right. This is not the case for a domestic oven though, as warm-up is usually quite quick, and then the duty cycle is low.
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On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 17:48:41 +0000 (UTC) someone who may be snipped-for-privacy@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew Gabriel) wrote this:-

I imagine that a kiln is a fairly steady load, I would consider it to be at least as steady as an immersion heater, probably more steady. However, that doesn't matter if the ring circuit is otherwise lightly loaded, give it some work to do for once.
Given the spare way in this case it makes sense to wire a socket to that in most cases. However, in other circumstances, if the ring only powers a few hand tools, connecting the kiln will not be a problem.
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Sir what will happen if a European oven with 13A main fuse rating is used in India where Standard power plugs are rated 16A after changing European plug to the Indian plug
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On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 10:57:01 +0000 (GMT) someone who may be "Dave

There isn't anything specifically made for this sort of thing that I have seen. However, one could wire a 16A MCB, in a suitable enclosure, into a ring main and feed fixed equipment from it. For example <http://www.screwfix.com/prods/32311/Electrical-Supplies/Consumer-Units/Wylex-Consumer-Units/Wylex-IP40-Insulated-Enclosure can presumably be fitted with an MCB and a blanking plate.
I'm not saying this is a good idea in many circumstances, it takes up half the rating of the ring, but in some circumstances it may be acceptable. An example would be a small workshop/garage where the ring only feeds small hand tools and general equipment like portable lights, and there is no spare way.
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Agreed, although I'm unsure of the 17th's position on this.
However I don't regard this as a practical option here.
Firstly it's "work" to do it. We're talking about a fused connection to the existing ring and a spur to the blue socket, not just sticking the blue socket straight onto the ring. Now if this workshop is anything like mine in layout (a house-sized CU by the door), that's nearly as much work as running a whole radial back to the CU. That also gives me fresh cable, in my choice of size, with no other loads on it.
Secondly (maybe first) it's important to split the RCD protection.
Thirdly diversity is hard in a workshop - the planer auto-starts the dust extractor, the plasma cutter uses the compressor too. That's multi-kW loads kicking in in pairs. Some of the assumptions underlying the design of the domestic ring just aren't applicable here.
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On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 03:57:56 -0800 (PST) someone who may be Andy

Still allowed, according to John Whitfield.

I have given an example of where it may be acceptable in another post. Whether those circumstances apply in this case I have no idea.
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On 03/02/2010 11:57, Andy Dingley wrote:

Have to agree with you on this one Andy.
IME, most workshops are wired so that each "machine position" has it's own radial circuit. There is usually only a 13A ring main for a bunch of 13A socket outlets for light-bench top use and then, if there are multiple benches, each one often has its own radial circuit with a local RCD.
Notwithstanding whether it's allowed on the 17th, I would be inclined to install a 20A radial circuit (i.e min 2.5mm2 cable) with a 16A MCB dedicated for this equipment.
OK, I've checked the 17th OSG and Appendix 8 Sec 8.3 allows for a radial final circuit using a 16A socket-outlet complying with BS EN 60309-2 (BS 4343).
The use of an interlocked socket outlet is *not* prescribed. The use of a switched socket outlet is *not* prescribed.
However, according to Appendix 10 of the OSG, whilst an IEC 309 connector is good for isolation and functional switching (by virtue of pulling the plug), it is not good for emergency switching, so really, there should be an isolating switch adjacent to or incorporated with the socket outlet.
Having allowed for diversity (none in this case) a 20A radial circuit is acceptable, in which case, the number of sockets is unlimited.
Minimum conductor size is 2.5/1.5 mm2 (Table 8A). Table 7.1 and Appendix 6 apply for grouping/derating.
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There is no requirement for emergency switching though. If you're leaning on the kiln and getting burned, disconnecting the supply quickly isn't going to make any difference. That's not to say that having a switch isn't sensible, but it would be for functional switching, not emergency switching.

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On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 17:55:22 +0000 (UTC) someone who may be snipped-for-privacy@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew Gabriel) wrote this:-

A point I was going to make. Emergency switching is essentially a means for unskilled persons to turn off some bit of equipment which can be stopped quickly from causing a danger, a drilling machine or lathe being an example, largely things with motors which can rip into human bodies. This might best be provided on the machine itself, at the starter rather than on some out of the way wiring point, where what is provided is a means of isolation, so that skilled persons can work on the wiring to the equipment.
In this case I understand that the kiln has a switch on it, which can be used as functional switching. If, for some reason, the kiln or the socket has burst into flames then I certainly wouldn't try to operate a switch which was beside the kiln at the socket, I value my health too much, I would be heading towards the consumer unit to switch everything off.
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On 03/02/2010 19:03, David Hansen wrote:

Isn't there a point to having it remote as well, so people seeing fred being chopped up from the other side of the room can do something about it? Yes, it depends enormously on the circumstances, but I would think having a stop switch at eg near the door as well as the machine itself would be appropriate. (and of course this still doesn't apply to the kiln).
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House CU with dedicated 40A RCD to shed --> buried 15 metre 40A armoured cable spur --> CU in the shed with 30A RCD socket ring and 10A RCD lighting ring. Put in on 31st December 2004.
I'll put in a new breaker. What is an "interlocking" socket?
I can't find a suitable downward-pointing, switched socket anywhere. Can anyone help?
Thanks for all your help
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In article

They are certainly available as I've seen them in TV studios, etc. Give TLC a ring - they are good at getting 'specials' in for you. But I'd guess an angled unswitched would bolt onto a vertical switched one if you could source both locally.
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On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 04:33:08 -0800 (PST) someone who may be JP

You are unlikely to find one, unless it is also interlocked. If it is easily accessible fit one of them, if not fit a separate switch somewhere suitable and a plain socket.
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David Hansen, Edinburgh
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wibbled on Wednesday 03 February 2010 12:33

They exist:
http://www.neweysonline.co.uk/newlec-interlocked-switched-socket-screw - terminal-16a-230v-2p-+-e- ip44/1050152387/ProductInformation.raction?campaign=Googlebase
But that's silly money... Look around, the same part should be available from somewhere for rather less...
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3.6kW works out at 15 amps even at 240 rather than the nominal 230v. At 230v it's approx 15.5 amp. So well over 13 amps which is the absolute maximum for a 13 amp socket, strangely. ;-) Hence the device not being fitted with a 13 amp plug...

They are an industrial connector used for all sorts. Machinery etc. Even caravan site connectors. Anything where 13 amps isn't enough - or you require a more rugged connector.

If the supply is up to it fit a radial from a new 16 amp breaker to the correct socket. Ordinary 2.5 TW&E should be fine for a short cable run. TLC etc will supply a suitable socket for the fitted plug.
But do make sure the supply to the shed is up to it. Which would normally mean it is greater than 2.5mm.
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On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 10:53:51 +0000 (GMT) someone who may be "Dave

If I was doing it myself I might, for a bit of fun, wire it up to a French style socket and fit a suitable plug [1] [2]. Provided that the conditions in the garage were not such that a "BS4343" connection is needed for robustness.
Obviously switching and protection would need to be double pole, including those in the kiln but that is presumably not UK/ROI specific and any new one would presumably need to be suitable for use anywhere in the EU.
[1] making sure both are rated at 16A, some are rated at 10-16A depending on approval body.
[2] the French style one is better in my view than the German style, where the earth arrangement on many relies on a rivet to hold the earth connection, which is designed to twist slightly, to the earth terminal block. The Danish version is the best of all, but will eventually be replaced with the French version for uniformity.
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Replaced? Although the French type E (where the socket has a protruding earth pin) has been _permitted_ for a couple of years now (mostly as a convenience to European foreigners with hybrid E/F plugs), is there any intention to actually replace the Danish Knudsen style? AIUI, they deliberately haven't permitted type F sockets, as there's a problem where older Danish plugs could then be jammed into them. This doesn't sound like they're trying to remove their legacy kit.
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On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 05:03:34 -0800 (PST) someone who may be Andy

French style sockets have been permitted since July 2008 I gather.
There is no intention to rip out Danish style sockets. However, it isn't just for the convenience of foreigners. Danes come back home with appliances bought elsewhere, which are fitted with a French/German style plug. Many don't replace this with a Danish style plug, as they should, but plug in. Obviously much portable equipment is Class II and will come fitted with a 2.5A or 16A plug with no earth connection, in which case there is no problem as either version will safely fit the sockets.
I imagine that eventually the French style socket will become the most common sort and the Danish sort will die out altogether. This won't be for decades though.
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David Hansen, Edinburgh
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