To replace older combi boiler?

On 29/12/2017 18:24, mechanic wrote:

This wasn't diy, it was a £10 million refurb that took building regs into account and the cladding might not have been a problem if the insulation had been rockwool instead of 'fire resistant' celotex. All manner of 'experts' were happy with this work.
It was an unfortunate combination of events that caused this fire and I suspect the worst mistake was allowing the stairwell to become full of smoke. The enquiry will reveal all.
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At the time of the fire, the 'cellotex' website said quite clearly this cladding wasn't suitable for high rise use. Soon removed from that site.

Yes. Just why the escape route became unusable so quickly is the main point. Let's hope it does all come out, and the same mistakes never made again. Sadly, I'm being very optimistic.
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Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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On Fri, 29 Dec 2017 18:34:25 +0000

Taking care is not sufficient - some DIYers lack the insight to recognise the limits of their competence, or the possible consequences of their actions.
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If someone is competent to work on water, what makes you say the principles for gas are any different? The outcome of faulty work may well be - but that's a different argument.
Would you be quite happy if a pro plumber installed pipework that leaked, but only unhappy if it happened with gas?
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Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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More unhappy, yes. And while techniques are similar they are not exactly the same. So they would only be competent if they read up about gas plumbing.
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Roger Hayter

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If you already have all the skills needed for plumbing, moving on to gas requires little extra. But I'm not suggesting you use push fit plumbing for gas. ;-)
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Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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On 30/12/2017 17:50, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

The plumbing aspect is one part of it, but there is obviously more to be aware of. Accidents with the gas side of things are very rare, but problems with CO poisoning are more common. So understanding the requirements for flue placement and assembly, adequate ventilation etc are equally important. Also worth noting that someone skilled in plumbing will generally be able to tackle most plumbing jobs, but gas skills are slightly more modular - so being competent to install a boiler does not imply you are aware of the specific requirements for an unflued device like a hob for example.
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Thought it was perfectly 'legal' for anyone to connect a gas cooker to the plug in type connector. Are the requirements of a hob only somehow different? Although I do know the plug in type of connector isn't allowed for a fixed hob.
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Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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On 31/12/2017 00:14, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

I have seen a number of discussions revolving around BS 6172 which say that either Fixed or Flexible connection can be made to hobs, unless the Manufacturer's Instructions say Rigid only.
The are further conditions that the flexible pipe must not be in contact with a surface >70C or is likely to be chafed, as in by a drawer.
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On 31/12/2017 00:14, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

It is...

There are for example minimum room volume requirements, and a minimum size of ventilation required. I presume (I have not checked) these also apply to free standing cookers, and the onus would be on the installer of the bayonet connection point to ensure they are met in any room they install the point in.

It is, but its a common belief that its not, based on historic guidance in BS 6172.
The 1982 version said: "Built-in ovens, drop-in hotplates and other individual units should be connected to the installation pipe by means of rigid or semi-rigid gas connections. Appliance flexible connections of the type used with gas cookers are not appropriate for these appliances since they are not intended to be movable by the customer. The gas connection pipe size should be not less than that of the inlet connections of the appliance."
The 2004 version of the BS 6172 doc probably (I don't have a pre amendment version to check) originally had similar wording, but was amended to have the same words as now shown in the 2010 version:
"11.1.3 A gas hob shall be connected to the termination point by means of rigid pipework or, unless stated otherwise in the manufacturer's instructions, a flexible connector and self-sealing plug-in device conforming to BS 669-1."
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On 28/12/2017 00:25, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Hear, hear.
If the gas rate at the boiler maintains 20 mBar and there are no leaks then that's it. Checking flue gases for correct combustion is the only tricky part of modern boilers.
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On Thu, 28 Dec 2017 17:54:35 +0000, Andrew
experience into a viable and meaningful comprehension...

I wouldn't install a boiler myself, but I do know that pressure is expressed in mBars, and gas rate in volume/time.
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Graham.
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I think you are commenting on a loosely worded sentence (*at* the *required* gas rate the boiler maintains a *pressure of* 20 mBar) rather than an error.
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Roger Hayter

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On Fri, 29 Dec 2017 09:18:30 +0000, Roger Hayter wrote:

Here we seem to be in a problem area where Northern Gas Networks won't allow installers to venture, let alone the d-i-y amateurs.
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Not necessarily. We are assuming the pressure is OK at the meter. The test is to ensure it does not drop at the boiler end when it is on full power. If it does it is more likely to be inadequate pipework in the house than a supply fault. But if properly designed it is just a check to show it works and is not blocked anywhere.
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Roger Hayter

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On Fri, 29 Dec 2017 09:18:30 +0000, snipped-for-privacy@hayter.org (Roger Hayter) coalesced the vapors of human experience into a viable and meaningful comprehension...

Yes, reading it again, that appears to be the case.
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Graham.
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On Wed, 27 Dec 2017 14:13:07 +0000, Paul Giverin wrote:

Cynical of me, but I think the incentives to buy a Baxi may be because they are not a market leader (possibly for reasons).
We fitted a WB combi in 2005-2006 and last I heard it is still going strong with no problems. This was condensing IIRC, with the condensate pipe feeding into the back of the upstairs toilet. Similar age to yours as far as I can tell.
Daughter fitted a Baxi a couple of years later because her local plumber supplied and serviced them and it crapped out big time and has since been replaced. Silly girl didn't have it serviced annually so didn't get a warranty claim. Having said that we didn't have the WB serviced annually and didn't need to claim on warranty. From my very limited experience boiler installers tend to specialise in one model because it is easiest to just learn one system and carry one set of spares. So the "preferred supplier" is often the one most convenient for the installer.
Are you sure the 28 CDi is non-condensing? My GoogleFu isn't working particularly well but I thought that range had been condensing from at least the turn of the century.
Anyway, I would expect the boiler to have a decent life left in it, but if it is really getting long in the tooth then a 12 year record of reasonable service with at least another 2 years life (14 years+) seems to me to be more of a recommendation than a 10 year warranty.
On that basis of personal bias if I were going to replace the boiler (on the basis that if I ran it until it failed I might not then be able to afford to replace it) I would be tempted to replace like with like.
Cheapest is not always best, neither is a bargain always one. BTDTBTS.
Cheers
Dave R
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On 27/12/17 14:37, David wrote:

And stay away from Alphas...
I've just put a WB 42 CDi in and I'm pretty pleased with it.
It's not the most sophisticated (no pump speed control, no weather compensation unless you sell your soul to their internet all in one system).
But it is competent, stable, very powerful (the 42kW is the hot water - I have used flow restrictor valves to the bath and given that half the theoretical winter output of DHW which still fills the bath in 15 mins or so). The idea is that when I have the shower room done, that can run and the bath can fill at the same time.
I'm told by the plumbers that WB have good parts availability when it does break.
My other option was a Viessmann - but they said there can be a lag on getting parts (like days to a week rather than mostly off the shelf like WB). However, the Viessmann boilers are better built (stainless heat exchanger) and weather comp is "add a sensor". Downsides apart from the alleged parts availability is the cost and the lack of a model than can match the 42CDi for DHW.
I should add, in my case, this was a whole new system - so I could over spec the rads to run easily within the condensing range. Most of the year, I can run with 55/45C flow/return which is pretty cool. Right now I have it set to about 64/54C which gives a fast heat up on a cold day and still in condensing mode.
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I've just checked and I've got a Baxi in my cupboard.
It's just coming up to 9 years old, never given me a problem (and I think that girly who owned it before me never once had it serviced)
I wouldn't even consider changing it at 10 years old
tim
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On 27/12/2017 18:22, tim... wrote:

Boilers don't need "servicing" they only need attention when they stop working. Not having some half-wit poking and twiddling stuff that doesn't need either action is the the best way to ensure boiler longevity.
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