Starting a car without a battery:

[Timothy Murphy]

A story from the past.

When I was a student I attended lectures by Fred Hoyle, who some may recognize as a Science Fiction writer, or older people may recall he gave a series of TV programs about the solar system, where he made the remark that he had found no evidence for God in his cosmological studies. This remark caused outrage at the time, with parsons demanding he be banned from the BBC, etc.

In any case, his lectures purported to be on thermodynamics. But in fact he was writing a book about a number of semi-paranoid views he held. Some are fairly standard, I think: razor blades could easily be made to last for ever, but the manufacturers deliberately add impurities to the steel which make them deteriorate in time; similarly, electric light bulbs - incandescent of course - could also be made to last for ever, but impurities were added to the tungsten to make sure they only lasted a finite time.

There were half-a-dozen or more such ideas. But one that I've never seen repeated was that cars could easily be made to start with torch batteries in place of accumulators. Again, there was a plot by accumulator manufacturers - I think they had bought up the patent of the torch-battery method.

I've forgotten the details of how this was supposed to work, but I'm sure it would have been plausible. I wonder if anyone has come across this idea, and knows how it works or is supposed to work?

[John Williamson]

I've seen it done with an old car with a flat battery, Use the torch batteries to power the ignition and turn it with the starting handle. Having six volt power on the car helps.

Or, for a *very* old car, just turn the handle and let the magneto do its thing.

[Caecilius]

I guess you only need enough current to energise the field windings on the alternator if you've got a starting handle. A torch battery is enough for that.

I've seen some youtube videos showing supercapacitors being used instead of a regular battery to start a car. Perhaps some sort of arrangement with a supercapacitor to start the car, which is charged from a torch battery, might work? Maybe with some sort of joule-thief circuit to increase the voltage.

But patents only last for twenty years don't they? If this was from long ago, the patent would probably expired.

Also, patents are published, so it should be possible to find the patent and determine the method if it was actually patented.

I kind of doubt it myself though.

[Timothy Murphy]

I'm pretty sure the method did not involve starting handles. I just about recall the starting motor being mentioned.

I don't really recall the bit about patents. They could just have bought up the guy with the idea, or bought up his company.

But I'd emphasize that the method would have been scientifically plausible, as Fred Hoyle was very smart. He was the co-inventor of the cosmological Theory of Continuous Creation, which was quite fashionable for a time. I don't think anyone believes it now. But I think Fred Hoyle did have theories about the creation of the solar system, and the reason for the proportion of different elements in the planets, which are largely accepted still.

I recall another of his ideas was that sufficient energy for the world's needs could be obtained by planting a strip of trees around the equator. The strip was fairly narrow - tens of miles IIRC.

I think he worked on these ideas with another guy called I J Good. Instead of half-baked ideas they had x-based ideas, where x was a coefficient between 0 and 1.

I recall another nice story about Fred Hoyle: When people were entering the US they were asked a number of silly questions - perhaps this is still the case? - one of which was, "Do you intend to try to overthrow the government of the state?", to which Fred Hoyle replied, "Not on this visit", with the result that he was refused entry, though later he more or less lived in the US.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

A torch battery that delivers 200 amps or so? Modern re-chargeables might do it - but a traditional dry cell torch battery not.

[The Natural Philosopher]

depends how many you have

[Steve Firth]

I suspect that Hoyle was attempting to force his students to think, rather than spoon-feeding solutions. There's really no absolute need for a big starter motor or huge current to start a car. A spark can be generated from a torch battery and the car carries fuel.

As others have pointed out you can start engines without any battery using a magneto and pull start or starter handle. In the past huge aircraft engines were started with explosive starter cartridges.

It's therefore possible to conceive the idea of starting a car engine in a similar manner - prime a cylinder with a fuel air mix, close the valves, fire a spark and hopefully get just enough "oomph" to start the engine moving. After that the engine should pick up as the other cylinders start to fire.

No idea if this was what Hoyle had in mind.

[Brian Gaff]

Erm, in theory at least and not including modern cars, one could do it with no battery I'd suggest, just shove a Diesel in it! Seriously though, its the current taken by a starter. In normal batteries the area of the electrodes makes them high impedance when you put an almost short on them, Lead acid batteries are using more surface area than torch batteries, so I'd suggest you might be able to get there by using the cells in parallel and series the former to boost their current delivery ability.

Fred Hoyle had what was often described as mischievous eyes, and yes, I saw him on several TV shows. I think he enjoyed ruffling feathers.

Brian

[Brian Gaff]

Yes the Magneto does work. Many early aircraft engines worked like this, and many people were killed or injured doing it!

Brian

[charles]

on a smaller scale, most garden power tools use a magneto.

[Tim Lamb]

In message , Brian Gaff writes

I kept the U magnet from the one salvaged from the Fordson Major tractor in 1955. Petrol/TVO fuel and 2 piece spark plugs.

[Graham.]

Eric Laithwaite had theories about gyroscopes that none of his peers subscribed to.

Then there was an eminent scientist who refused to "believe" in electron microscopy (or perhaps just the STM variant).

Said it was all an optical illusion.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Wouldn't it just be easier to use a starting handle? It was a feature of some old Rolls Royce that you could start them by waggling the ignition advance/retard lever to force it to spark. But they were a low compression unit with a heavy flywheel. Not every engine could be persuaded to start in that way.

[SteveW]

I had a helicopter flight a couple of years ago and magnetos were definitely still in use. Part of the start-up sequence was to earth each magneto in turn and check that the engine revs didn't drop significantly.

SteveW

[Theo Markettos]

It might, except: Older cars had fuel pumps which were mechanical and needed the engine turning over to pump fuel Pumped fuel was necessary to make a mixture in the carburettor You might get away with the contents of the float chamber pulled in by a suitable through-draught of air (so no need for fuel pump), but if the engine isn't turning there's no air draught.

With an electric fuel pump and electric fuel injection it might work, but not on a mostly-mechanical car.

Theo

[harryagain]

All aircraft (piston) engines have magnetoes. Most have two complete ignition systems hence two (differing) magnetoes. Two stroke engines usually have magnetoes.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Depends what you mean by older. Lots of British cars used SU pumps. Which was first seen in the early '30s.

[Dave Liquorice]

start the

Have you never started a petrol egnine with a starting handle? Turn ignition switch to "run", pull out the choke (if engine cold), turn handle to a point where you feel compression then sharply take it through compression. No priming, no electric fuel pump, just the venturi effect through the carb to draw fuel from the float chamber.

[Steve Firth]

Oh yes, depending on engine capacity and compression of course. But that's not really the point, is it? It's just a case of "what alternatives to a starter motor are there?"

[SteveW]

Engine capacity and compression don't matter as you can use the old aero engine trick - winding the starter handle to run up a flywheel and then use the energy stored in that to start the engine.

SteveW