Removing artex - how do I find someone who won't rip me off

[Clive]

First a little diversion.

My mother's kitchen ceiling came down as a result of a very slow leak from a shower pump on the floor above. Man what a mess! Boy did we laugh! Now she was told that the ceiling artex might contain asbestos. I scoffed. "They" were right. Luckily insurance paid for everything. I think the most expensive part of the job was paying for the men in the space suits to remove the artex.

Second diversion.

My dear old Dad used to work in industrial safety and one of their profitable sidelines was to sell the space-suit respiratory systems used by the people stripping asbestos. I vaguely know of "white/grey" asbestos and the very nasty "blue" asbetos from my departed Dad. Asbestos has fantastic thermal and heat resistant properties but tended to do horrible things to those who worked for years with it. I saw pictures of men shovelling "raw" asbestos in factories. Hence, legislation to ban the use of the stuff. Don't know all the details about asbestos but it kept food on our table.

End of diversions

I have bought a small Victorian terrace house in which two rooms have been "improved" ... by artex on the ceiling. There are other roooms with with painted anaglypta on the ceilings. It's a mess and it's all coming off.

Now, I have seen adverts for companies that "specialise" in the removal of asbetos - and to be honest some of them look like they do it on an industrial scale for 70's built factories and office blocks.

So ... and this may be the paranoia .. how do I choose a company to use? I am prepared (almost) for the job to be expensive. However, how do I trust the results from the company when they take and analyse the sample and come back saying "oh yes, sir ... asbestos be there"? The removal of it seems a cosy, legislation-protected cartel to keep prices high. Believe me, I have a little understanding that asbestos can cause very nasty medical conditions following prolonged exposure. But I'm tempted to buy a gallon of Nitromors, good goggles and hire a forced air, small particulate dust mask and scrapre, scrape, scrape to get rid of it. Though if I'm honest I wouldn't dump the resulting asbestos gunge in the bin because of the asbestos - so the diy approach does't seem to be available.

I have read that one can plaster over artex, and I have a quote for that - but I just don't trust that approach (paranoia again) - I just have visions of the new plaster slowly ... slowly detaching itself from the artex "substrate" and me waking up one morning with a plaster over-blanket on top of me.

Experience anyone? Suggestions?

Thanks

Clive

[Norman Billingham]

Don't underestimate the amount of work involved or the amount of mess you can make. You'll likely end up having to have the stripped ceilings skimmed with plaster anyway.

If it's a downstairs room then there will be substantial joists above. The easiest thing is to screw a new plasterboard ceiling over the whole lot and start again. I did this in a previous house over badly craked lath and plaster and had no problems.

I also had Artex skimmed level in a previous house. With a good coat of PVA before the plaster, it worked fine, and there were no problems with detachment at least over the ten years we were there.

Hope this helps

[DrLargePants]

I had all the Artex skimmed over in my place and its fine. It was coated with PVA before hand and it aint come down yet!

[chris French]

In message , Clive writes

you get an test done by an independent company, with no interest in the results

I. it may not contain asbestos anyway.

1. The asbestos is fine whilst in the artes, creating dust is the problem.

I've had artex skimmed, it's fine.

Though I'd go for the overboarding with plasterboard approach (with a skim if you want)

The latter is DIY-able - maybe not the skim.

[Owain]

If the artex is later than about the mid 1980s it won't contain asbestos. (Check web for actual date.) One of your neighbours might remember when the previous occupant "did the place up"

In many areas you can take small quantities of non-trade-waste asbestos to a designated council tip.

If you don't trust wet plaster skimming you could plasterboard over it, held up with screws. That would be unlikely to come down in a hurry. Bear in mind there is probably a reason why the ceilings were artexted/anaglyptad in the first place.

Before you worry too much about asbestos in the artex have you seen what's in the water tanks?

Owain

PS watch out for gas lighting pipes that are still live.

[Peter Parry]

It probably will be and its simpler simply to assume it is. Artex was is an asbestos cement product and contained as its major ingredients chalk (calcium carbonate) and gypsum plaster (calcium sulphate). Typically the dry powdered mix for trade use Artex contained about

3.8% w/w of chrysotile asbestos and the ready mixed DIY product about 1.8%.

It is an enormous fraud, but Artex removal does not require the use of a licensed contractor. Despite furious lobbying by the asbestos scam industry it was removed from the regulatory regime by the Control of Asbestos Regulations 2006 because the risk is negligible. If it is removed then whoever removes should be appropriately trained but does not need to be licensed. This means most local plasterers or builders could undertake the work or you can DIY.

The safest and best way of dealing with it is to simply skim over the top with plaster. This doesn't have so much to do with its Chrysotile content as the fact that Artex is very difficult to remove without destroying the ceiling and even when possible is an enormously messy and time consuming task. Left alone or covered with plaster it is no health risk at all.

It's quite available - most councils have at least one local amenity waste site registered to take asbestos cement waste brought by private individuals.

[Arthur 51]

I work for a university and my office is in a building that is soon to 'treated' for asbestos. The building has 6 upper floors and at least

2 basement levels and each floor of the building is going to be evacuated including desks and files for several weeks at a time. The treatment for each floor will involve hermetically sealing each floor and then employing air treatment machines until the air is found to be clean. But this method is probably necessary because some floors of the building are open plan.

For your problem, is it feasible to rip out the entire ceiling? Hopefully it is plasterboard in which case you could spray or paint a sealant onto both sides and take the ceiling out piece by piece. Even if the ceiling is lath and plaster your house might have to be evacuated for a week or more. In which case then if you have removed the infected crap then you could hire air treatment plant and employ a environmental monitoring technician to monitor the air treatment test results.

Just my tuppence worth.

Arthur

[George]

Plasterboard over it,its the cleanest and soundest way.

[The Natural Philosopher]

There you are, the sane sensible answer you wanted.

Asbestos was only ever dangerous in high concentrations as *dust*. Shoved in landfill its just another load of mineral waste.

Peter is dead right, the stuff sticks like shit to a shovel, and since one of its most common uses was to cover up the paper that had been applied to keep the ceiling up. if there is any sign that the ceiling itself is dodgy, or you can combine this with a bit or pipe and cable laying to justify it, rip the whole ceiling down and replace with plasterboard. Shove the old plasterboard in a skip, or plastic bags and take to the dump. Act dumb 'it's plasterboard. that's all'

[Piers Finlayson]

Or they use another council's waste. For example, Enfield council tell you to take it to a tip in Islington, but you have to phone them first to warn them.

Of course, the above only applies if you _know_ it's asbestos that you're chucking ...

[R]

Artex removal

Hire a wallpaper steamer and a scraper to scrape it off...........Messy but it does work

[Clive]

Thanks for all your help and advice.

I have contacted

and I will carefully take the samples from the two rooms, send them in double sealed bags, my cheque for =A340 then await the results from an independent lab.

Thanks again.

Clive

[Onetap]

No thanks, I've had some already.

Removal contractors are usually the worst gang of devious, incompetent, unscrupulous rip-off merchants that you'll ever have the misfortune to encounter. Many of those in the trade flout the regulations with utter disregard for their own and everyone elses' safety. They mostly have no interest in their own welfare, beyond where the next drink is coming from, and they're certainly not bothered about yours. They usually tape off the area, more to prevent you seeing what they're doing than to contain the fibres. They then bash the asbestos-containing material into dust with a shovel and the shovel it up, confident that no one will come through the barriers to see what they're doing.

They then issue a certificate, saying the area is clear.

The only way you'll be sure they're not ripping you off is by learning more about the business than they do and chucking them off site when they start the dodgy practices.

You're welcome.

[Lurch]

On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 21:38:58 -0000, Clive mused:

Erm, did anyone suggest that? Sounds like just the sort of ripoff you are trying to avoid.

[clot]

As a youngster in the 1960's, I installed fireproofing asbestos boards in buildings, sawing 8' by 4' panels and consequently took a great interest in the 70's to the "Asbestos Affair". There was an issue for people involved in the abstraction, manufacture and maintenance of products including certain types of asbestos. It is the prolonged exposure to certain types of dust that are/ were critical; and indeed it does appear that secondary exposure, such as those of people washing the overalls of workers in asbestos may have contracted the terminal illness this way.

As a curious science student in those days, I took a great interest in these issues. I also was later involved with the CEGB and the water industry where asbestos pipes were used.

The issue as I understand it relates to the continuous exposure to the dust of two types of asbestos ( sadly, I cannot recall the two types now - and I hope that this is not a symptom of my exposure!).

Another poster has referred to a change in the legislation.

The issue of asbestos exposure today is totally OTT. It is barely an issue - just a money making racket generated by the public paranoia.

I have no qualms working with any product suspected of containing asbestos provided the material is damp and is not allowed to generate dust.

[Andy Hall]

You're still writing cheques?

Oh dear. Someone appears to have seen you coming........

[dennis]

You appear to misunderstand then. One exposure can give you asbestosis. Multiple exposures just increases the chances.

However IIRC its not much worse than smoking and people still do that.

Just don't saw, sand, etc. asbestos anywhere near me or my family.

>

[Peter Parry]

Standing in the street can get you hit by a falling aircraft.

Amphibole (Blue and Brown Asbestos) fibres stay in the lung for a very long time and are the most hazardous. Chrysotile (White asbestos used in asbestos cement product) is both structurally and chemically different from the amphiboles, stays in the lungs a much shorter time and is significantly less hazardous.

With both types there is a well established dose/time relationship with illness. The greater the exposure and the longer the time of exposure the greater the risk. The vast majority of asbestos related deaths are in people who have had heavy industrial exposure for many years. The greatest risk today is amongst people employed daily in the renovations and repairs of older buildings.

Every day everyone has some exposure to Asbestos, it is present in microscopic amounts in the atmosphere (and quite large amounts on London Underground). One exposure to Amphibole Asbestos could in theory give you mesothelioma or lung cancer (it won't cause asbestosis) but the chances of it doing so are vanishingly small. The chances of one exposure to Chrysotile doing so are on a par with that aircraft hitting you on the head.

Multiple exposure to large amounts increases the chances hugely. The risk from occasional exposure to asbestos cement products is so low that in the process of demolishing an asbestos cement shed, packaging the remains and driving it to the tip the most hazardous part of the process would be the drive to the tip.

[clot]

As Peter Parry has responded, we need to appreciate what and where/how we are working/ living/ exposed to these issues. Today, we have gone OTT on asbestos to the detriment of UK PLC. Today, exposure to asbestos dust is not an issue, other than to those removing it and it is debatable as to whether the removable is of benefit!

I could have a personal issue of exposure in the near future in that I now am semi retired am have the good fortune to be fit and have the opportunity to fettle a motorcar (manuf in 1957) that I haven't used since 1986. I shall have to inspect and service / replace the drums and shoes - I hope I'm allowed to? Oh bugger, I've now told you that I might have asbestos shoes. Please may I still use the motor? I'd like to do less than 1k per annum to local shows, or is this too much of a risk to the local populace?

[The Natural Philosopher]

Indeed. No one wants to think in terms of national cost benefit..how much more money would be available for healthcare if we stopped wasting it on getting rid of extremely minimal health hazards.

I think its really because social sciences grads can't do sums. Even taking off their socks and using their toes..