Reinstalling a Sash Window

Hi,
I'm part way through repairing one of the sash windows on my approx. 1901 house. Over the years it seems to have moved away from the wall into the room slightly, and the surrounding pointing has failed allowing water in. I'm going to have to replace the sill and the bottom few inches of the outer lining and the pulley stiles.
At the moment the window is dismantled and being stripped ready to repair, rebuild and re-install. My original plan was to fix the outer lining hard up to the reveal, with a bead of frame sealant to finish off.
However, the overall thickness of the outer lining, pulley stile and inner lining comes to 128mm. I assume that this should be level with the plaster on the inside of the room so that the architrave can sit just touching the plaster. Unfortunately, the depth from the surface of the plaster to the reveal is between 140 and 150mm. What's the best way to proceed ?
1. Space the window off the reveal by about 12mm using battens all round, then finish off with pointing and frame sealant along the mortar/window frame joint. This is how it was originally done, but I'd be vunerable to the pointing failing again.
2. Replace the inner and outer lining with thicker wood - which might leave an ugly step when the staff bead goes back on, and might also look out of proportion.
3. Hack off the plaster round the window, most of which has already come off, replace the window and then replaster up to it, so that the outside edge of the architrave is partially covered by plaster. This might be a problem if I ever need to get the architrave off again.
4. Fit two combis and fill with caustic soda. And (another) cat.
I'm thinking that the first choice might be the best, any other suggestions ?
Finally, the sill looks as if it was made from 5 x 3 timber. The largest that I can find at the local timber yards (Jewsons and Travis Perkins) is 4 x 3. I could always build up the width with more wood, the join would be more or less inside and covered up by the lower sash, but is there somewhere I should be looking (in the Warwick area) for larger section wood, in small quantities ?
Cheers,
Phil Young
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My only comment is dont assume your plastering has to be level, you can angle it where it meets the window, either at 90 deg, 45 deg, or rounded. Or perhaps something more artistic if youve got some days off.
Regards, NT
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On Fri, 04 Jun 2004 12:19:56 -0700, N. Thornton wrote:

Good point, thanks. I'd need to accomodate the picture rail though, without leaving part of it 'floating'.
Cheers,
Phil Young
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1. Cut it short, rounding the ends off 2. Cut short and add plaster to the end so it looks like the profile dips into the wall plaster 3. Cut short and add 2-3" lenth of rail going down at 45 deg, art deco style.... 4. cut short and add round moulded things on each end (roses, discs, etc) etc.
Regards, NT
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On Sat, 05 Jun 2004 14:33:18 -0700, N. Thornton wrote:

Or I could just follow my usual pattern:
5. get bored, live with it
Thanks for the ideas,
Phil Young
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Round here Travis Perkins sell hardwood sills by the metre in the two common sizes. IIRC, they're about 6x3 and 9x3. Quite expensive, though, but might be a direct replacement with no fiddling.
--
*If horrific means to make horrible, does terrific mean to make terrible?

Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@argonet.co.uk London SW 12
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wrote:

Travis Perkins have a much wider range of timber available than they stock at most ordinary builder's merchant branches. There's a catalogue available. In this area the full range is stocked at Shuttleworth's old timber yard at Maidenhead and my local branch here can arrange for timber to be delivered direct from there. If you can't find what you need at your local branch, look in the catalogue and ask them to search for the reference number on the computer.
Peter
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On Sat, 05 Jun 2004 11:41:52 +0100, Peter Taylor wrote:

Thanks for that, both of you. I more or less went through this process today, and according to their computer, they have both hardwood (approx 40/m) and softwood (about 12/m) sections available at Luton and Northampton repectively.
They didn't mention getting anything delivered to my local (Leamington) branch though, so I'll ask about that next week. Otherwise I'll take a trip to Northampton (or possibly Luton for the hardwood, but since the original lasted approx. 100 years, the softwood should be okay)
Cheers,
Phil Young
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I wouldn't bank on it - 100 year old 'softwood' would almost certainly be pitch pine rather than the rubbish they sell today. If you soak it in preservative, and keep it well painted, it might just do 20 years or so.
--
*OK, so what's the speed of dark? *

Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@argonet.co.uk London SW 12
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On Sat, 05 Jun 2004 21:23:33 +0100, Dave Plowman wrote:

Luton branch it is then.
Cheers,
Phil Young
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Phil Young wrote:

Maybe better to renew the whole length rather than a little bit...

Re-install the frame correctly, pack it up on the inside. This bliddy post won't come out right, but you may get the gist:
######### ######### ######### ######### The sash box has a strip attached %%%% ######### which the architrave partially covers, #####======== this gives a nice feature at the edge #####| | of the window. #####|------| #####| | I have even seen two sets of architrave #####======== used for this, one superomposed on the #####%%%% other, which gives a magnificent feature! @@@@/

If you've any sill in decent condition, take a sample in to a Jewson or other who have a mill, and get them to run you off some more. You should be able to get much larger than 4x3" timber at Jewson, for sure. Talk to one of the hands in the mill, they're usu. v. helpful. As the set-up cost will be about 20, you may care to get a couple of sills made up if you've any other dodgy windows. Treat the bottom of the cill to a couple of coats of bitumen emulsion before re-fitting, but beware don't get it on the faces of the timber else it will bleed through finish paint!
J.B.
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On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 06:16:39 -0700, Jerry Built wrote:

The cill (or is it sill ?) is being completely replaced, the other sections I'm going to try and repair, I don't like throwing the 95 good % away.

Now that I'm rebuilding, the whole frame has to be spaced inwards of the reveal by about 6-10mm. This is due to the top element of the frame being a U-section that fits around a wooden lintel, so I have to accomadate that.

I was thinking of using a length of flashing under the c/sill as well. The original is no good since it was repaired 'professionally' a few years back, hence my having ot do it properly now !
Thanks for the info, I'll have a longer chat at Jewsons, and try other non-brand-name places as well.
Cheers,
Phil Young
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I don't think patching a sill - even correctly by letting in new wood - works in the long term as it gets perhaps the worst of the weather.
--
*I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing *

Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@argonet.co.uk London SW 12
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Mostly because the new wood moves at a different rate to the old, creates gaps, water gets in, and so on and so forth. Replacing the whole sill works well with (of course) car body filler for the gaps between new and old.
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On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 11:25:58 +0100, stuart noble wrote:

Yes, I understand that, but to clarify, all of the cill is going but I'm going to try and repair the bottom couple of inches (out of six feet or so) of the outer lining and pulley stiles (both sides). For the sake of originality I suppose.
Cheers,
Phil Young
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If it's just a couple of inches you could use solid wood rather than trying to retain the channel. IME most sash weights hang about that distance off the bottom. You'll probably be able to see where yours end up when you hack out the rotten stuff. Unless it's actually disintegrated, I'd try and use it as a basis for the filler. If you gouge out some deep grooves with a bradawl, it should hold it.
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