OT: "Mixed up the brake and accelerator"?!?

[Commander Kinsey]

How the f*ck can anyone "mix up the brake and accelerator"? They're in the same place on every single f****ng car in the entire world!

[Brian Gaff (Sofa)]

Last week a friend of mine had a 90 year old driver reverse at speed into his fence and hedge, and it had to be lifted out. Apparently the person put it into reverse, by accident. Brian

[Commander Kinsey]

I can understand that, 1st and reverse are close together on a manual, and you can forget which you've already put it in if distracted. And in an auto, they're the wrong way round - forward gear is further back then reverse on the lever.

But the brake and accelerator I can't understand mixing up, faster on the right, slower on the left, on every single car ever made. Please don't someone say "Model T Ford" or "De Dion-Bouton", I wasn't going back that far!

[Commander Kinsey]

What part of "Please don't someone say "Model T Ford" or "De Dion-Bouton", I wasn't going back that far!" didn't you understand?

[NY]

If you remove your right foot from the pedals (eg tuck it under your seat) and then bring it forward again, you *may* need to look which pedal (brake/accelerator) you are about to press, if you can't do it by muscle memory and feel (eg "can I feel the wheel arch of the car immediately to the right of my foot?").

I suppose the problem is that if someone is not very confident with controlling a car while manoeuvring (which begs the question "are they still capable of driving?") then if the car starts to go "out of control" (which may just need a slight reduction in power or a gentle touch on the brake) they may panic and instinctively press a pedal - *any* pedal - which may turn out to be the accelerator rather than brake.

I can understand people making that mistake. They are still utterly incompetent, but the mistake is still understandable, if not forgivable.

It's a matter of having the awareness of your surroundings and your car. When I'm reversing, I always bring the clutch up slowly, with minimum power, to feel which way the car is about to go (that rules out being in first rather than reverse), and then I start moving slowly and gradually apply power and let the clutch up further, alert for any reason that I may need to come off the power and apply the brake in an emergency (eg if a car or person suddenly comes into view even after I've checked). At low speed, it's actually quicker to pull the handbrake on than to move from the accelerator to footbrake (as long as I have released the accelerator and pressed the clutch in a manual).

Also I always waggle the gear lever from side to side (to prove to myself that it's in neutral) before starting the car (assuming it will start without the clutch pressed) or before releasing the clutch after I've stopped and as I'm about to turn the engine off.

Setting off smoothly, and without a sudden jerk, in an automatic is something I find harder to do than in a manual, probably because in a manual you have two ways of controlling the power: accelerator and clutch, so the first few yards of movement are controlled with a fixed accelerator and letting in the clutch, rather than *solely* by varying accelerator pressure as in an automatic and waiting for the torque converter to start transmitting power to the wheels. That's only a problem when inching into or out of a parking space, or lining up the car with a trailer's hitch, and needs very quick reactions to release the power and dab the brakes if you're about to go to far.

[Steve Walker]

No they are not. They may be in the same order, but in some smaller cars, the intrusion of the front wheel arch into the cabin means that they are all set towards the left. Someone driving one of those after a larger car would find their right foot naturally positioned over the accelerator instead of the brake when they sat in a normal position.

Anyway, mixing up the accelerator and brake is not about not knowing where they are, it is about simply having your foot out of position for that car; finding the car moving faster when you are trying to slow or stop it; and automatically pressing harder to stop it; with everything them happening so fast that you don't have chance to realise why and correct it.

SteveW

[Commander Kinsey]

Firstly, I never move my foot from the pedals, or perhaps just sit it directly behind (my side of) the accelerator. Secondly, if I do I can easily remember where it was. Try this. Take a book, read something part way down the page. Look away. Look back. I can return my sight to precisely the word I was at, can't everybody?

AFAIK all countries require you to successfully park a car in a few different ways, and do 3 point turns etc. to pass the test.

How odd. If anything makes me panic (like somebody's dog who ran in front of my car recently), I instinctively step on the brake and only the brake. My subconscious knows that in line with my right foot is power, and between my two feet is stop.

They shouldn't have passed their test. The emergency stop part of the test should have detected that psychological problem.

I don't do that on purpose, but I have on occasion been in the wrong gear in a car where they're very close together. The car only moves about 6 inches before I subconsciously stand on the clutch and brake to bring it to a halt.

I don't use the handbrake at all. It's far weaker than the footbrake, and the cable often stretches on older cars so it doesn't work at all. I can hillstart perfectly well using the footbrake. When I park I just put it in gear. If it's a very steep hill, I turn the wheel so it would roll into the kerb.

Why bother? I just start it with the clutch pressed. Usually I've parked the car and put it in 1st so it doesn't roll. So I have no desire to put it into neutral then back into 1st to move.

How odd. I've had three autos, one of which was very old (a 1988 3.5L V8 Range Rover) - all three were VERY smooth. Letting go of the brake even suddenly will make it very gradually ease up to about 5mph. Then pressing the accelerator is extremely smooth, you don't have to worry about gearchanges, even an unintentional sudden jolt of the accelerator is absorbed by the torque convertor. Although there was something I particularly liked about that car - no safety mechanisms to protect the gearbox. I could put it into N, floor it and rev to the red line, then engage D. All 4 wheels would spin quite professionally and the car would shoot forwards at a speed a 2 tonne vehicle should not.

[Ed Pawlowski]

I could accept your reasoning if the error occurred the first time driving a car. Most happen with the same car the driver has used for years. Dementia matters.

Remember the Audi problems? Pedal were close in height, IIRC.

[Commander Kinsey]

I've driven cars of all sizes and never had that problem. Unless you're wearing steel toe capped boots, you can feel if your foot is on the pedal correctly.

No car has the accelerator so far over it's where you expect the brake to be.

Who would be monumentally stupid enough to do that? You do x, it causes the opposite of what you expect, so er.... lets do more of the wrong thing? My god man....

Your subconscious should react very fast, if not, surrender your license.

[Commander Kinsey]

Most use the same foot for both. But you should be aware of where your foot is. In fact with me it goes as far as the position overriding what foot or hand it is. If I put my left hand to my right, and my right hand to my left, then ask someone to touch one hand while my eyes are closed, I feel the touch in the position I know that hand is in, but I can forget which hand it is.

[Commander Kinsey]

I once (during driving lessons) touched the accelerator a little bit when braking (in the emergency stop test), that was a very small silly little car (Rover 100) too small for my feet. I can't remember if the accelerator was higher than normal, but it must have been, because every car I've ever owned, you can't press the brake pedal far enough down to become level with the accelerator.

[NY]

No. I can go back to fairly close, but I may be a line or a word out.

The thing I always have difficulty with is looking across to my passenger door mirror and back - it takes a moment for my eyes to "find" the mirror, and then afterwards to start "processing" the state of the road ahead again, so I check that there's nothing about to need my attention ahead before doing it. I suppose that ties in with not being able to go *precisely* to the correct word in a book - I can get close with a first stab but then need to fine-tune after that.

I'm sure most elderly drivers passed their test fine, but the years have not been kind and their sight may not be as good or else their perception of hazards may have suffered. Everyone goes on about reaction times worsening with age, but just as important is taking the *right* action, as well as

*some* action, as quickly as possible.

Likewise. If my foot is on the accelerator, I know that the brake is x inches to the left of my foot's normal position. Getting used to a new car involves adjusting that distance, and also for the fact that in some cars, the pedals are all shifted a bit left or right with respect to your normal comfortable position. Perhaps the hardest thing to adjust for between one car and another is the height of the brake compared with the accelerator from the carpet: normally the accelerator is closer to the floor than the brake so you have to make a conscious decision to lift your foot to hit the brake, to save you accidentally catching the brake while pressing the accelerator. But how much do you need to lift it?

I suppose, as you get older, you lose the ability to go unerringly to the brake and may accidentally catch the accelerator. Or there may be a total lock-up where you make *a* movement - but the *wrong* one.

I've often thought that automatic cars, while they are an ideal labour-saving feature for the elderly and infirm, can also be lethal if the person isn't fully in control because they are less likely to stall if you c*ck things up, and because you haven't got a second way of cutting the power by pressing the clutch.

They will have been competent when they passed, otherwise they wouldn't have passed. But that was maybe 50-60 years ago...

Yes, been there. Somehow I usually sense that I'm in the wrong gear before I let the clutch out so far that I've stalled. If I'm quick, I can recover by finding the correct gear as a matter of urgency and trying again. If not, as you say, brake to a halt before you've committed yourself by pulling out into traffic.

The only car that I repeatedly stalled was a diesel Golf that I test drove - and it wasn't that specific car because the same thing happened when I had to drive a hire car of the same model of Golf. Apparently it was a well-known problem: the version with the PD (Pump Duse) engine, before they brought in HDi technology, had a very cussed engine-management unit which made it behave unlike every other diesel-engined car. Normally, if you apply too little power or let the clutch out too far, the engine lumbers along and tries its damndest to keep going, even if you can feel each and every individual power stroke. But this engine seemed to have a setting which says "if there's too little fuel, cut the fuel altogether and make *certain* that it stalls". When I googled it, it seems that a lot of people had fallen foul of it. I'm sure you get used to it very quickly, but when you are driving for the first time, it catches you out. A diesel that stalls because of insufficient accelerator *more* easily than a petrol is not something you find very often ;-)

Ah, you've perfected being able to press both the footbrake and the accelerator at the same time, rocking your foot from one to the other as you set off? I never learned that - but then I've always had a good handbrake to rely on.

It's more when I come to a halt. Have I put the car in neutral already or is it still in gear? Difficult to remember for an action that is normally so instinctive. I always check now, after very nearly catapulting forwards on one of the few occasions that I hadn't gone into neutral as soon as I came to a halt.

Modern cars tend only to start with the clutch down, so at least you can't fall foul of starting in gear. As long as you don't rely on its protection. My car will start with the clutch up; my wife's won't. When I go back to my car I have to remember to check that it's not in gear - or else always to press the clutch before I start.

I tend to park in gear only if I'm on a hill: first if I'm facing uphill and reverse if facing downhill, so that either way, if I *do* set off in gear, the car will try to go *up* hill which will do less damage. And like you, try to get the wheels facing so a runaway car is directed towards the kerb - assuming I've parked far enough away to allow room to turn the wheels.

I suppose it's a belt-and-braces check: I *know* that I always park in neutral, I *know* that I always press the clutch before starting, I *know* that I always put the car in neutral as soon as I come to a halt when parking - but there's no harm in a quick "waggle check" to make sure this isn't the time when I have forgotten to do it...

I though that this "creep" action was only on older autos, and more recent ones would not set off on the level with no brake and no accelerator, and that only increasing the revs a bit will cause the car to set off. My Dad's Y-suffix Sierra onwards crept, as did his slightly newer Honda Accords, but when I next drove an auto (a Ford Focus from about 2000, and later on, some unspecified Ford-Fiesta size of car) there was no creep and it required more than idling speed to get the car to move. The trick was applying *just* enough power to get the car moving, and then release the accelerator immediately if I wanted fine control to move just a few inches.

The added problem is that the accelerator cable may stick slightly so there is a sudden jump once enough force has been applied to overcome cable and mechanism friction. My first Renault 5 was terrible for that, so I learned to use the clutch to cushion it when it was magnified most by being in the lowest gear - until I got the garage to grease the pedal, cable and carburettor linkages...

Impressive. And I bet you left impressive skid marks too ;-)

[Commander Kinsey]

When I panic, I do something to prevent the situation I'm in, not do more of the the thing that got me into it. Imagine you're running along and encounter a tiger in front of you. Do you run even faster in the same direction towards the tiger or turn round and run another way? It's not rocket science.

As above, barrier coming towards you fast because you pressed a pedal, best to try another thing perhaps?

I panic, but sensibly.

Pity about the guy who was driving their daughter.

[Dave Liquorice]

Not in my car:

1 3 5 2 4 6 R

[Dave Liquorice]

world!

smaller

Yep. and often close together so if you have wide feet you have to get the postions just right or catch your own feet or adjacent pedals.

Yep, a friends wife was very nearly killed when an "elderly driver" accelerated hard down a market street ploughing into her market stall.

[Bob Eager]

I once drove a Rover 3.5 automatic that had the accelerator to the LEFT of the brake pedal (which was in the usual place). The owner had a gammy right leg, so drove only using the left foot.

Just to complicate matters, the handbrake was partially faulty (didn't grip on hills). I was driving it from the owner's house to the garge where I worked, for this to be fixed. I managed OK although it got a bit hairy at the traffic jam halfway up the hill in Lewes.

It was generally OK. I parked it outside the workshops with the nose facing a wall. The manager came along (having been warned about it) and slammed it into the wall. Body repair job.

[The Natural Philosopher]

My late mum did exactly that. Ran into the back of a stationary artic in the high street.

"I forgot where the brake pedal was" she confided to me later..

Still later she forgot where she lived, that she had ever been married or had children.

[Brian Gaff (Sofa 2)]

Grin, then there is the clutch. This of course is where an autonomous vehicle would be much safer, It simply would refuse to go if it detected things in front of it. Brian

[whisky-dave]

God moves in mysterious ways.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Was it an auto? Quite easy to do.