Rant on

OK, before we start on the personal attacks, I run a company. I deal with different businesses every day in a variety of industry sectors. I personally know business owners who run companies varying in size from 15 to

500+ employees. They operate anything from IT companies to telephony services, estate agencies, engineering outfits, accountants, the list goes on... The ONLY sector that has the cheek to even contemplate charging before giving you a price is the building industry!

So? It's like saying "It costs me money to put a car showroom together so I'm going to charge everybody an entrance fee before letting them in".

Ah, well - I think we've hit the nail on the head (pardon the pun)! I.e. - there's so much work out there you can pick and choose the easy jobs and / or the jobs which offer zero competition.

But that's fine. I certainly wouldn't expect 3 plumbers who had given me a price over the phone to then EACH carry out a site survey. That wasn't my point though. My point is that if a price can ONLY be given by attending site (which was the case in my scenario) then the builder should meet the cost of that.

I totally agree - there's nothing more annoying than wasting time with barterers or people who constantly come back expecting you to lower the price 'cause they've found it cheaper elsewhere.

Again, totally agree and people like that deserve what they get. However, not every industry is in such a fortunate position that they can afford to turn away work 'cause it's a bit more hassle. As I say, a LOT of people have been bitten by cowboy builders over the years and I have every sympathy for genuine customers who just want a good job for a reasonable price. I have no sympathy for people who don't realise how good they've got it and treat their 'customers' like something they've just scraped off their shoe.

Andy

Reply to
Pecanfan
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Not quite sure why the quotation *should be* for free - we operate in a "free" market, people are entitled to charge for any services they provide, as long as it's stated up front and customers are entitled not to use them. We might want to live in a world where everyone gets three free quotes and the job then goes to one of them but we don't. A decorator or plumber might go out on site and give ten quotes and get only one job - someone has to pay for his time and he won't get anything back on nine of them. For large jobs (eg building an extension) you will normally get free quotes but it's less likely on small jobs.

I agree it's a trifle rude not to tell someone asking for a quote you aren't interested straight away - this is one area the building and associated trades could improve on. I also agree that it's unfortunate that it's almost impossible to get small jobs done but that, again, is supply and demand. The builder I last used, when he was doing my extension, had ten jobs on the go and another twenty to price. He couldn't possibly do all the ones he was asked to quote for - which would you put in the bin - the small ones or the big ones? He is not in the Yellow Pages and doesn't advertise.

I'm not sure what you are suggesting - that there should be laws passed to govern who people agree to quote for and what their terms are? I suspect we have enough legislation! If you force people to give quotes for free, they will give silly ones without visiting so you are no better off. As it was, for my extension I received quotes of (roughly) £25,000, £35,000 and £42,000 for the same work. I would have been no worse off if (at least) the last hadn't bothered to quote.

Reply to
Bob Mannix

For what I do yes - this is standard practice..

This depends on what work is involved and the commitment on the part of the customer. For what I do, it is easily possible that several days work are involved. The customer won't know what he needs until he has looked at the service and product so it is impossible to provide a quotation. I can give a range of figures but that is all. The customer then pays for the initial evaluation scheme and that is then full refunded as part of the purchase.

Even on a low end consumer job, the tradesperson is going to spend probably at least 2 hours getting to and from the potential customer, surveying the job and then sending out a proper quotation

Somebody has to pay for that. As I say, either the tradesperson absorbs it, amortises it over the other customers or charges something

- even if it's only a token amount. The fourth alternative would be to quote on a time and materials basis, which in fact is likely to be more satisfactory all round anyway.

.andy

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Reply to
Andy Hall

I couldn't agree more. In your business, I think that you would have to run that way to be able to staty in business and give good service.

I used a professional antenna installation company a couple of years ago on a T&M basis, based largely on references of commercial work that they have done. They will also do fixed price installations of UHF antennas and Sky dishes at two levels. One being the basic version using contract materials and the other being a good installation using better materials, much more care over cable routing etc. With job prices typically being under £200 a time, even for the good stuff, it's not economic to call and give quotes.

Your observation seems to be a common rule of business. Those customers who want to nickel and dime are always the ones who are the biggest PITA afterwards.

.andy

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Reply to
Andy Hall

Nope. The IT industry most definitely does.

It depends on the work involved. If the supplier has to spend 5 days scoping out the work, do you expect all of that for free?

.andy

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Reply to
Andy Hall

Not if they want to do any business with me, they don't. And I spend several million dollars a year on behalf of my employers.

Reply to
Huge

I really beg to differ - can you give me an example of this?

Well, if 5 days are required to give ANY form of a price, then yes!

Andy

Reply to
Pecanfan

I am talking about projects where a substantial amount of consulting work has to be done with the customer to even figure out what the job is and to scale it; rather than something that is a product supply and install. I agree with you in the latter case that it is typical to simply quote.

.andy

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Reply to
Andy Hall

Most of the major equipment vendors on a high ticket item will offer try and buy schemes. Obviously a price can be quoted up front for jus tthe product, there is not a lot of cost in that. However, if consulting services are required in order to define the project because the customer can't or hasn't done it, or if specific work is needed in order for the customer to trial something, then it is not unusual for the customer to be asked to commit to purchase under a defined set of conditions or to be asked to pay something to cover costs if the requirements are met but they decide not to proceed. Since the deliverable is goods and services, it may be possible to quote for the goods but not the services until the project has been scoped out. In these instances, the customer may be quoted on a time basis for the consulting.

In that case, it would be reasonable for the supplier to quote on a time and materials basis or if pushed into a fixed price to sandbag it. This is one of several reasons why a T&M basis can be preferable.

.andy

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Reply to
Andy Hall

demonstrated

Very common in large architectural projects. How could anybody afford to spend a million or more producing a bid otherwise.

Reply to
G&M

Too right - though it is usually called "consultancy" to make the customer feel happier about it.

Reply to
G&M

In message , anon writes

Isn't this discussion a bit OT for a DIY NG ?

not that it doesn't always go that way, but shouldn't this discussion be taken to uk.winging-about-tradesmen ?

in the time various people have spent moaning about not being able to "get a man in", they could have e.g. built a house, let alone a conservatory

Reply to
raden

You do have a point - although if it wasn't for the fact that a lot of us can't actually find tradesmen, we wouldn't be subjected to this DIY stuff! :-)

Andy

Reply to
Pecanfan

That's the part of the country I'm about to move into. Could you give me any recommendations of good local building, plastering, roofing or central heating people? My "from" address is spam trapped but the (improbable sounding) "reply-to" address is valid if you don't want to post personal contact info on usenet.

Reply to
Mike Clarke

Mmm... OK, but what you're talking about there isn't exactly the 'usual scenario' and for the above to happen the following is probably true. Either:-

a) The customer already has a trading relationship with the supplier

or

b) The supplier is offering such a unique product or solution that there is very little competition, which gets back to my original point of NO COMPETITION = BAD.

The T&M situation is certainly valid, but again the customer would expect to have had a vague indication of costs before agreeing to this. Normally a very basic quotation will be put together FOC on the basis of extra work being required to carry out the final quote, which can either be carried out by the customer or the supplier at a charge of £x per hour or whatever... depending on the scenario obviously.

Generally though, in the IT industry especially, suppliers are queuing up at the doors to win customer's business. I know of suppliers who have spent well in excess of quarter of a million pounds in expenses and man hours alone, in an attempt to win a single particular contract. Most customers see the expense involved in preparing quotations as the price you pay for winning new business. Believe me, I'd love it if it didn't work like that.

In any case, this has nothing to do with me being unable to get someone to attend to my soil pipe, so to speak. :-)

Andy

Reply to
Pecanfan

That depends on the business environment.

That depends on the meaning of competition. It takes many forms other than price.

Obviously one quotes on typical cost of the materials, a rate per unit time and an estimate of what the likely time is, but it has to be an estimate.

It depends on the product/service.

So do I, but that would be for a multilillion contract.

It depends on whether it really is preparing a quotation or whether it is really consultancy and that is a different thing.

I agree. I was simply making the point that that there is acost in this stuff and somebody somewhere does pay.

.andy

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Reply to
Andy Hall

Exactly what I am doing, a self build, not the "Grand Designs" way, but the DIY way. The BCO thinks I am a nutter, but I am working faster than he guessed I would.

Rick

Reply to
Rick Dipper
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Hardly. I have finally decided that I don't have time to do everything, and that I'm going to what I enjoy and pay someone to do the rest, even if I do have the tools and the ability.

Reply to
Huge

AISI the matter is one of supply and demand. There are other car showrooms to go to. People frequently complain I have had such difficulty finding a .... (insert whatever trade you wish)....

Most of my work is from Landlords. They accept as part of my terms and conditions that the first visit will fix a trivial problem or give a realistic estimate (T&M) or fixed quote for a bigger matter. This gives them the option of engaging someone else if they feel my price/estimate was way out. It also provides them with an exact description (AIUI) of the problem. The first visit is chargeable either as Repair minor damage to .... or Identify cause of ....

I am far too busy to start chasing jobs I let them come to me. However I am fairly brutal about whether I am ever going to be able to do a job and when I am likely to be able to get to do the job. It is IMHO unfair to string people along on the basis that I might just need the work.

I have a large secondary order book of things people would like me to do if I get short of work.

It is/will be getting tougher for the general builders the slavic slaves work 12 hours a day probably for 2 hours pay.

Why bother I'll wait til my order book is empty before I have to start surveying jobs.

Either you build up a clientele of mutually respectful customers or you operate in a 'predatory' fashion always looking for new customers and hoping the really upset ones don't hunt you down. It stands to reason that all the adverts and yellow pages listings contain mostly the latter style. You might get lucky and find a good one who has just started and is building up his customer base.

Reply to
Ed Sirett

But would you want some of these people actually trying to do even a little DIY, let alone build a house themselves.

Reply to
G&M

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