Petrol from air.

[harry]

Came across this.

[polygonum]

Already discussed at length weeks ago.

[Dave Liquorice]

And almost as daft as another one I saw the other day extracting hydrogen from ethanol to use the hydrogen in fuel cells. Er why? Burning the ethanol directly eliminates two energy consuming processes before you get your "useful" energy.

[polygonum]

The one I saw was using methanol...

[Dave Liquorice]

Yes, incorrectly remembered. I'd still be surprised if this process has any real advantages over using the methanol directly though.

The hook they are trying to hang it on is the ease of transport/storeage of methanol over hydrogen. So you have your methanol where you want your energy so why bung in some more (energy consuming) steps?

[Tim+]

And this one was just taking the p*ss....

Tim

[The Natural Philosopher]

the theory is that fuel cells are more efficient than burning, and methanol is easier to transport than hydrogen.

However the devil is in the detail.

Fuels cells are efficient..at low power.

You still lose power in them, and in the conversion of methanol to hydrogen. and at sane power levels there are zero advantages it seems.

[polygonum]

Possibly because hydrogen fuel cells themselves are in some way better than one that consumes methanol? E.g. more efficient, less expensive, longer lasting, less likely to be poisoned by impurities, etc. (All guesses. Real answers would also be welcome.)

[RobertL]

Can you actually use methanol in a fuel cell? Hydrogen fuel cells make electricity.

Robert

[Brian Gaff]

Well its always been possible but if you are using power to produce hydrogen, then as there is no such thing as perpetual motion or a 100% efficiency, it has to use more energy than it creates. All very well to say it uses renewable energy, but will it be enough? If you are putting the oxygen back in the air, I guess this will help with the lowering of carbon, but is it more efficient to just use tthe hydrogen I wonder?

Brian

[Tim Streater]

No, you want a *dense* fuel. Hydrogen energy density is too low.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Relax Brian., Its juts more desperate GreenSpin to try and make renewable energy look like it might, just conceivably, with a few more billions tossed at it,. actually do something useful

I downloaded Renewable UK's report and accounts yesterday. They turn over over £6m a year.

That like 200 people devoted 24x7 to lying about renewable energy, for money.

You can spin a lot of lies for £6m a year.

[geoff]

Not so much trying to extract petrol from air as money from government

[harry]

f you are using power to produce

New nuclear (if it happens) will be twice the price of renewable energy. We haven't even paid the price for the old nuclear yet. We haven't found anybody willing to have a dump for nuclear waste in their vicinity even. Looking more and more unlikely.

I visualise wind turbines with a tap on the bottom wot petrol comes out of. :-) Or even solar arrays.

[Man at B&Q]

But will be available 24x7 regardles of weather conditions.

That was built for very diferent reasons to very different standards.

Copeland district counsil are quite keen.

Only when viewed with green myopia.

Some people say you should not eat cheese just before bedtime.

MBQ

[Dave Liquorice]

Who said anything about a methnol fuel cell? I said burning the (m)ethonal directly eliminating energy consuming conversion processes before you get to "useful" energy.

The more conversion steps you have the less energy there is available at the end to do useful work.

[Dave Liquorice]

So what happens to the carbon from the methanol? I suspect the process produces CO2, H20 and a bit of H2.

CH3OH + O2 -> CO2 + H2O + H2

Curiously there appears to be fuel cells that use methanol directly...

[The Natural Philosopher]

you are using power to produce

Lie.

You should be taking your medications more often harry. That will cure these hallucinations.

[harry]

They actually exist.

[Steve Firth]

Yeah, it's called crude oil. Loads of it around.