Petrol contaminated with diesel

Appin wrote:

So, Rudolph Diesel sorted the engine in 1893, seems like Young sorted paraffin in 1850, I wonder when commercial diesel fuel became available?
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Dave - The Medway Handyman
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We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold. I remember "The Medway Handyman"

It replaced expensive whale oil in lamps. Heating shale to extract paraffin was very expensive, but the lamp oil produced was being sold at a premium, albeit cheaper than whale oil.

When refining tech made it possible, I'd guess building on Young's work and others like him. Bear in mind, for example, in the early days of the motor car petrol was already in existence as a solvent and dry cleaning fluid and was commonly found in chemists. I'm uncertain what later became known as diesel oil would have been used for, if anything at all - perhaps as a light lubricating or penetrating oil. Maybe even a purgative. It may not have been cracked off from the feedstock until there was a perceived need for it. Istr reading somewhere that early oil refineries were aswamp with products they had no use for - a lot of it would have been simply burned off or left in with the sludge. Diesel oil isn't a very attractive liquid at all, and it's hard to see it being in much demand for anything until Rudolph came along.
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Dave
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On Fri, 19 Sep 2008 22:21:02 +0100, Grimly Curmudgeon

The story goes that either Daimler or Benz was said to have been attracted to petrol following the case of someone cleaning clothes in petrol in a room with an open fire bursting into flames. This implies that some engines were already using gas and he was looking for a suitable fuel to allow mobile use.
AJH
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The Medway Handyman wrote:

the diesel engine was perfected 1897, I should imagine shortly after that, as the US brought the licence to produce the engines in 1897 and in 1899 a factory had been set up to make them in Germany
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Kevin R
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On 19 Sep,

I doubt if it has yet been perfected, judging by the black smoke emitted by some modern vehicles, mainly taxis.
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If you leave London on the M4, pretty well all diesels smoke badly going up the hill where it goes derestricted. And most put their foot down.
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Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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On Fri, 19 Sep 2008 23:23:08 +0100, snipped-for-privacy@privacy.net wrote:

Don't forget buses. Many a time I've been stuck in traffic behind one on my motorbike listening to the tuneful sound of my engine 'pinking' whilst coughing my head off!
Don.
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Cerberus . wrote:

My recent experience has been that some of the heaviest diesel vehicles (artics and other heavy lorries) have been far, far less smokey than many cars and vans, etc. (Buses I find to be quite variable in the good to medium range.)
It is usually some poxy little car that makes me switch over to air recirculation.
Perhaps at the top of the ranges the panoply of control devices has actually achieved the apparent cleanliness we want? Or maybe the excess cost of the fuel wasted (when not burned as well as possible) is starting to make maintenance worthwhile? Or is it the London Low-Emission Zone regulations having an effect?
(And of petrol vehicles, it has to be lawn mowers and tiny, buzzy bikes that are worst.)
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Rod

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Rod wrote:

Turbos help a lot. The problem is the diesel likes a lean mix. And to make it go faster you throw in fuel, not air. Turbos throw in extra air as well.
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The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Absolutely - I was completely convinced of the benefits of turbocharging diesels long before I accepted they could make sense for petrol engines as well.
(Would a turbo help a 2-stroke lawnmower as well? :-) )
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Rod

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The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Hence the puff of smoke when you floor a diseasel. The turbo does nothing for a bit...
Now if they designed the exhaust so the driver could see the smoke, perhaps more of them would push down slowly?
Andy
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Pretty well any diesel that has been idling for a while - or driven gently - will smoke badly when pushed. Hence the way the MOT is done for diesels.
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Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

I fully accept that. Still it seems to me that there are many small diesel vehicles that emit such clouds for long distances - sometimes as long as I am following.
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Rod

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Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Is that true for direct injection though?
No build up of fuel in the manifold etc..
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Aren't pretty well all diesels direct injection? You compress air to a high pressure and therefore temperature then squirt some fuel into the combustion chamber which causes the bang?
Direct injection is fairly new with common petrol cars, but not diesels. Perhaps you're thinking of common rail where an actively powered injector times the injection under the control of an ECU, rather than the older pump?
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Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Nope. Lots squirt it into the inlet manifold I think.
Ah. always find someone who knows more..looks like I was half right. Neither the inlet nor the cylinder..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indirect_injection

I was actually thinking of an ancient tractor..wheer the glow plug was in the inlet manifold, and the only way to start it sometimes was to open that up, and pour a cupful of diesel into it, and then if that didnt catch fire, shove a rag in it and light it..I cant remember if that had direct injection or not..
Model aircraft diesels use no injectors at all..but do require ether in the mix to ignite it.
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Not much use that. For the fuel to get from there to the combustion chamber the valve would have to be open. And with a valve open no compression.

That's really just an extension of the combustion chamber for all practical purposes. The idea being to make the engine less harsh - or more like a petrol one - for car etc use. But the most efficient designs stayed with direct injection.

Sure it wasn't a paraffin burning type? They are more akin to a petrol engine.

And are horrendous, efficiency wise. Diesel of course refers to a compression ignition engine - which may or may not run on diesel.
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Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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Just to say that I cut my grass this afternoon using the contaminated fuel. B & S 12 hp engine, no problems and I didn't actually notice anything different.
I don't think I will be using it in the strimmer though. That uses so little petrol compared to the lawnmower anyway and I don't know whether the diesel would be an adequate substitute for 2 stroke oil or whether I would need to add that to the mix as well.
Many thanks to all who proffered advice.
--
Roger Chapman

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Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

I can't point at anything, but I thought that last time I bought a car almost no diesels used direct injection. That's over 10 years ago though, and things may have changed.
Andy
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The Medway Handyman wrote:

I am thinking back here..you know even WWII diesel was not the fuel of choice..German tanks used it, but ours did not IIRC. they caught fire most spectacularly.
ISTR that the R101 airship was supposed to have diesel engines, tha was mid thirties...
Marine diesels were I think becoming common in the 20's..as were stationary diesels..
So I would say there was a smattering of diesel about in the 20's and a steady uptake to the 90's.
Pre WWII even a petrol station was a comparative rarity.
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