Part P and Dishwashers

[James]

Firstly yes I know these have nothing to do with each other.

I have two basic questions which may cause a bit of a discussion.

First questoin I know Part P have been done to death in this group, One questions though . If there are no registered individuals registered in my area on Jan 1st 2005 , how do I stand ? is the law enforceable ?

Second question. I am going to purchase a new dishwasher in the new year. I have been reading about Zanussi having very expensive spare parts (IMHO a rip off). So I'm not going to buy one of those dishwashers.

How makes good slimline dishwashers and will do spares at a reasonable price especially consumables like wheels.

Thanks

[Andy Hall]

The law is always enforceable - the question is whether anybody will.

If you are DIYing electrical work beyond the exemptions in part P then you should arrange a building notice at the local authority. Whether you do, is up to you - your decision and conscience. It is not illegal for an unregistered electrician to do work (unlike for gas), but again, he or you should apply for a building notice.

Whether you would get caught or not is another question. The most likely route is on sale of the house and at that point the likely procedure would be normalisation and testing.

I had a Zanussi dishwasher in the past and it certainly went through items like wheels and the pegs to hold them in quite regularly, plus the solenoid valve monotonously once a year.

Some years ago I switched to only using Miele white goods and the economy makes more sense. The capital cost is somewhat higher, but a

5 or 10 year warranty is normally included and the issue of consumable spares simply doesn't seem to arise.

Overall, the cost of keeping the Zanussi going plus original cost exceeded the Miele cost, so these "cheap" machines are really a false economy.

[Owain]

"James" wrote | I know Part P have been done to death in this group, One questions | though. If there are no registered individuals registered in my | area on Jan 1st 2005, how do I stand ? is the law enforceable ?

Of course. It is your responsibility to either use a registered contractor, or to use an unregistered contractor or diy and then submit the appropriate application and fee to building control.

Owain

[James]

So what good is the partp.co.uk site is no one bothers to register !!!! Are the sparkies not interested ?

Do the council have people employed to do the checks on the DIY electrical ? if so how much do they charge . I assume its a fixed amount fixed by central government. If so how much?

This entire things seems not to have been considered/planned properly IMHO

[Tony Bryer]

The good ones probably have more than enough work as it is, as do all good tradesmen.

Back in my BCO days one of the few really good builders on my patch ran an 18-month waiting list. If you wanted him to build your extension he came round, looked at the job and looked you over and if he liked what he saw you got on the waiting list - for the potential clients it was a nerve-wracking business, like trying to get your child into an exclusive public school. He was good, charged a fair price (arguably undercharged given the demand) and would never have bothered with YP ads, recommended contractor schemes, Guild of Master Craftsmen etc etc.

[James]

yes I quite understand

So how is part P going to work !!! and at what price ?

[Tony Bryer]

IMO it won't do much for the real cowboys and the folk who get their mates to wire their showers into the nearest socket. I think it may well influence the Mobens of this world. If I were a paid-up electrician then rather than moaning about Part P I'd use it as a marketing opportunity and put something on my quotes on the lines of "This work is subject to Part P of the Building Regulations. We will ensure that all the relevant requirements are complied with and give you a certificate to this effect on completion. You may be asked for this when you come to sell your property"

[James]

not be a limited electrical qualification to allow component DIYers to do their own ( and certify their own). without having to do a full 3 year plus electrical course which teaches you an awful lot more than basic home electrical work.

[Andy Hall]

Probably not. Unlike gas fitting, they are not required to belong to one of the trade organisations to legally do their work. Of course the trade organisations will attempt large marketing programs to suggest to customers that if work is done by one of their members that it will automatically be safe and "legal". This is nonsense of course, because each member is likely to get about two installations checked per annum so perhaps 1% of his work.

I would expect that they will sub out the work to electricians who are members of the appropriate trade organisation or lodge.

Councils have scales of charges based on the value of the work at professional rates.

It is entirely commercially motivated and politically assisted. It was promoted in central government by commercially interested organisations with a veneer of information suggesting an improvement in safety and accidents (in fact based on incorrect extraction of statistics). Couple this with a civil service department that likes to create work for itself and a government who likes on the one hand to regulate while spending time on illicit train tickets and abuse of due process and you have what we now know as part P.

[OldScrawn]

I got the Bosch Classixx a year or so ago (Which best buy) and 1: it washes very well 2: hasn't needed anything fixing

[Andrew Gabriel]

Start from a position of not enough electricians in the country anyway. Somewhere around 1/4 of them are members of trade organisations which is a starting point for registration. However, this 1/4 concentrates on commercial/industrial work, so the number of domestic electricians who are members of trade organisations NICEIC and ECA is actually very much lower than 1/4. The government clearly hoped all electricians would join one of the approved schemes, but it seems this hasn't happened. Actually, almost none have done so. So there are virtually no domestic electricians in the scheme, and no inspectors for those who are outside the scheme. If you read the letters in the trade press, it's looking like a number of electricians at or near retirement age have decided to bow out at the end of this year, so the electrician shortage will get worse too. So at this point in time, it's looking like Part P is dead in the water.

However, I installed my new consumer unit on Monday, just in case ;-) Part P just gave me the imputus to get a round tuit, which was probably the one good thing about it. It's been on my to-do list for 5 years...

[Andy Hall]

I think I'm going to burst into tears....

I wonder if there'll be a ceremonial hanging up of the wire cutters on new year's eve.....

I can see it now. Two Jags in an Astra van with loudspeakers on the roof offering amnesty to anyone who turns in their strippers and screwdrivers before April.

[Frank Erskine]

I've just done a search for "competent" electricians in my area on the "partp" website, and find that there isn't anybody locally who can do my home installation work, which requires to be done very early next year... ;-)

Although Part P apparently only applies to dwellings (and I do a lot of leccy work for a local amateur theatre, so it doesn't apply in my case)(apart from the caretaker's flat), the partp website has a section labelled "Does it apply to me?", but doesn't refer to non-dwellings in a "ticky-box" bit.

Exactly as you say, it's commercially motivated and politically assisted. Just another bit of government spin to look good in the tabloid press, and nicely timed for a general election...

[ARWadsworth]

Do you think those few domestic electricians that have joined up to one of the approved schemes will be better off in 2005? They will certainly be charging more for doing the same job but only to pay the NIC etc.

Adam

[Hugo Nebula]

On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:14:22 -0000, a particular chimpanzee named "James" randomly hit the keyboard and produced:

[James]

I am reading this correctly when it implies a DIY installation requires the installer to pay for both a member of the "competent person scheme" to inspect the work and issue a certificate **and** pay the normal fee to building control? What if a DIYer cannot find a person to inspect it - see above posts?

James (not the James who was the OP)

[James]

I did not express myself correctly. I intended to say:

Am I reading this correctly when it implies a DIY installation requires the installer to pay for both a member of "NICEIC / ECA / NAPIT" to inspect the work and issue a certificate **and** pay the normal fee to building control? What if a DIYer cannot find a person to inspect it - see above posts?

James (not the James who was the OP)

[Hugo Nebula]

On Fri, 24 Dec 2004 20:25:29 -0000, a particular chimpanzee named "James" randomly hit the keyboard and produced:

I don't know what the fee for an application where the work is being carried out by a member of one of the above named bodies will be, but AIUI, it will be fairly nominal. If it is DIY work or the contractor isn't a member of one of the bodies, then one would have to pay a higher fee to Building Control, who will engage a 'suitably qualified' electrician to inspect the work. They will obviously have to inspect the work during installation as well, so a Building Notice submitted _after_ the work has been carried out (as another poster implied) will not be acceptable.

IMHO, the guidance just says 'a competent person', and that the relevant certificate should be submitted to Building Control, which implies to me that if one has carried out the tests required on the installation, that should be sufficient to satisfy the Requirements. However the corporate line (in my local authority at least) is different, and one has to be a fully paid-up member of one of the trade bodies to be classed as 'competent'. To the OP, it may be worth asking your Building Control what they regard as a competent person.

[Andy Hall]

Hmmm... makes it a bit arbitrary, doesn't it?

It would seem that an alternative approach would be regularisation. In other words, wait until the job is done and the go along to the LA and say "Terribly sorry, only just realised that there were Building Regulations regarding wiring" etc. Then pay the regularisation fee and done.

In practice, I suspect that a lot of this will happen when properties are sold. In other words, notifiable DIY work has occurred post January and then seller answers question from buyer's conveyancer that it has. This triggers regularisation fee and inspection, and possibly correction of faults. The difference is that the regularisation and inspection costs go the vendor, whereas today the inspection, if done, is paid for by the buyer.

[Mike]

I might have missed something in this thread but surely dishwashers come with a standard 13 amp plug and there are no part P issues to be dealt with.