Paging a real plumber

[Onetap]

GHD fittings (general heavy duty)

[Onetap]

I've seen a lot of soldered water pipes that had frozen and all of those, without exception, had split longitudinally. The hoop stress is twice the axial stress in a thin cylinder, ISTR.

[John Rumm]

Tap connectors are not a universal replacement for compression fittings though, so not sure why you bring them up.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Plowman makes up stuff to avoid losing arguments.

[sm_jamieson]

Some interesting info on this forum about pros and cons of brazing:

Simon.

[sm_jamieson]

Some info from reading around:

Plumbing fittings available in the UK are intended for soldering - especially the thin walled copper. Copper to be brazed needs thicker wall pipe since high temperatures can weaken or fracture the thin walled copper, especially when flaring the pipe. Also, couplers for brazing have shallower joints due to the brazing material not running in so far by capillary action.

Brazing is required for caravans or mobile homes, since soft solder can fracture with the movement.

You can get thicker copper "fridge pipe" for use with brazing. Also, Yorkshire do a separate range of pipe and fittings for brazing.

Due to higher temperatures, brazing can be more dangerous in confined spaces, under floors, etc. It can also be harder to remove joints when making modifications.

Also, UK is using more push fit and / or plastic plumbing components - is this used in Australia at all ?

Cheers, Simon.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Just lucky, then. Pipes bursting due to freezing are fairly unusual in this part of the country.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Don't need to tell lies to win an argument when there are idiots like you posting here.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Thanks for that.

[dennis]

I would think that the pipes don't freeze all along their length so there is a good chance they will burst before enough of it has frozen to push the ends out.

They can freeze near a joint and then there is a good chance the joint will pop whatever type it is (except plastic).

Solder joints pop after one good freeze, compression joints creep so you may get away with a small number of freezes but they will pop if not reseated.

[dennis]

Because it is a common type of joint designed to be disassembled, without needing to thread the pipe or be able to rotate it, compression aren't designed for disassembly and if someone has overdone it they leak when you put them back. It's quite easy for someone to over tighten them and damage the pipe.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

It must be far from common as I've only ever seen this once. But not an expert on burst pipes due to freezing because of where I live.

For info, it was in my outside loo. One part of the house I hadn't re-plumbed by then, so I dunno if the joint was properly made. But it did looked well tinned. I cleaned it, applied flux, heated it and pushed it back together - with a little extra solder. Worked fine until I modernised the loo and replaced all the plumbing in it. About 25 years ago. ;-)

[F Murtz]

Yes.

[John Williamson]

There are two basic types of copper pipe. One is made by repeatedly drawing a hollow billet through a series of dies until the desired size is reached. This is the commonest type and very strong, as there are no weak points in the tube.

The other type is made by rolling a sheet of copper to form a tube, and welding the edges together using heat and pressure. This is prone to the longitudinal splitting mentioned. I've not seen it used for a long while, so it may not meet modern legal requirements.

[Onetap]

If he says he's seen one that failed that way, I've no reason to doubt him. It usually splits the pipe.

[Onetap]

They usually freeze at the cold spot and split there as the ice expands.

I still think the pipe would split before the joint parted, but don't care enough to try it.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

I'm more than willing to accept that as I've little experience of frozen pipes. But surprised no one else has come across it. NP can believe whatever he likes.

[docholliday93]

ces, under floors, etc. It can also be harder to remove joints when making modifications.

While I normally use soldered fittings at home, when I have plumbing done o n the systems at work it would be normal to use push fit on copper. That's mainly due to the enormous hassle involved in getting a premit for hot work (e.g. any time you light a gas torch). If you're doing anything that might set off the fire alarm you have to arrange for the local fire alarms to be deactivated, and for someone to be present for the whole time the alarms a re off as a fire watch. I wouldn't be surprised if other places go for push fit for similar reasons .

[Onetap]

Thinking about it, the pressure increase, as water froze & expanded, would have to shear through the solder across the entire area of the joint.

[harryagain]

Drivel. I have never seen a soft soldered joint pull out under any circumstance. I have seen badly made ones leak.