What is the real LED energy efficiency?

[RobH]

It's like anything else you buy: buy cheap, get cheap, etc

I've had some led bulbs fitted in my ceiling lights for about 5/6 years now , and they still are working fine.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Because they are not interested in being contradicted. It would be an utter waste of time.

They would tell me to f*ck off.

Its total bollocks, any fule can see that.

More than most climate scientists seem to yes.

In particular the two critical fudges - the first that there is positive feedback, and the second that clouds can be 'parametrised'

Michael Mann and co are still there after 20 years despite having been found cheating, lying and making it all up.

Even the most fudged recorded temperature series is at the absolute bottom of the 'we stop emitting CO2 altogether' scale but the warnings are all based on models that have read high by a factor of 3-10 since inception.

Your trusting naivete is touching. I have some googles for you

Piltdown man Lysenko Galileo.

[Roland Perry]

In message <sl694q$182$ [e-mail]>, at 13:49:30 on Mon, 25 Oct

2021, Andrew snipped-for-privacy@mybt>> In message <sl15ui$1g8a$ [e-mail]>, at 15:24:17 on Sat, 23 Oct

Very possibly, and as long as eventually you found one with a lender who wasn't that bothered, you'd be OK. But along that route you'd have found several people to whom the condition did in fact matter.

[Roland Perry]

In message <sl3c1l$mm3$ [e-mail], at 11:20:36 on Sun, 24 Oct

2021, The Natural Philosopher [e-mail] remarked:

4,000 is 2/3 of 24,000?

[Roland Perry]

In message <sl69i5$g3r$ [e-mail]>, at 13:56:37 on Mon, 25 Oct

2021, Andrew snipped-for-privacy@mybt>> In message <sl16sm$1tlo$ [e-mail]>, at 15:40:22 on Sat, 23 Oct

All the windows on sale have to conform to the thermal and safety regs

They care a lot if it's a conservation area.

Indeed, but some are far closer than others, in appearance.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Indeed. All the warming observed could be accounted for by some very small decrease in cloudiness. There are other issues to - as geography stands the Arctic Ocean is the great heatsink of the northern hemisphere - heat goes to the Arctic and radiates to space from there.

melting ice is a sign that its dumping more than usual, - not that elsewhere is getting warmer.

After a few years all the cold water from ice melt has worked its way down to teh equator, cooling the seas and the gulf stream slows down. Then sea ice returns, and the cycle starts all over again.

Calling a part of that multidecadal cycle 'man made climate change' is the height of pseudo scientific bollocks

[The Natural Philosopher]

I said building cost. Not window fitting cost.

As I said what cost me was things like making dormers and interesting roof shapes out of cheap timber. £1000 labour to use £100 of timber and some nails up?

3:1 is *average*. Obviously bolting a £6500 aga in on its concrete pad took less than a day .

Fitting £200 of electrical cable took a week.

I did the final fix on electrical socketry. a plastic socket is a few pence. a double gang mains socket under a quid in plastic and a couple of quid in plated brass, but it still takes the best part of 20 minutes

*at least* per socket to cut the hole for the backplate, wiggled the cables in, strip and twist the pairs if necessary, and screw down or punch down depending on the socket.

When each socket fitted is probably costing around £20 adding a quid to get a nice metal socket instead of a plastic one is just 5%

I do know that when my mum had DG fitted she had to get a guy in to make good all the mess they made and fill and replaster bits and redecorate a bit.

Tradesman like expensive shit they can make a turn on and goes in fast on fixed price contracts - beats working any day. But if you are DIY-ing or subcontracting the labour, the sums are different.

In the case of windows, there is usually a load of making good - a day or twos work for a decorator per pair of windows. That bangs up the price.

My windows went in before plastering so I don't count that as a direct cost.

[The Natural Philosopher]

There are no 'thermal regs' for windows,

What there are are guidelines which will definitely place the windows on the right side of the thermal regs, but the thermal regs apply to

*houses*, not to components.

In my case I had to meet *overall* heatloss - with single glazed windows I could do that with more roof and wall insulation and so on

[Chris Hogg]

As has been demonstrated by three quite independent and peer reviewed papers published in relevant and respected journals.

I note that the abstract for that last paper includes the observation "The main reason for this error turns out to be the positive water feedback generally applied in climate models", which is what some people have been saying, here and elsewhere.

[Roland Perry]

In message <sl8u90$9e4$ [e-mail], at 14:02:23 on Tue, 26 Oct

2021, The Natural Philos>> In message <sl69i5$g3r$ [e-mail]>, at 13:56:37 on Mon, 25 Oct

That's news to me. What's FENSA for then?

[The Natural Philosopher]

"Your FENSA certificate provides proof that your window and door installations:

Comply with Building Regulations Use energy efficient products Are registered with the local council

It also means the installation company?s warranty is insured."

No mention of thermal ratings.

And certainly not on the windows.

The guarantee is that the *installation* (in your particular house) complies with building regulations. No more, no less.

I installed single glazed leaded lights. The *installation* complied with building regulations, and I paid a heat engineer £130 to do the heat loss calculations, which the building inspector accepted.

You might drill a small porthole in your wall and put in a 6" diameter single glazed window, and because its so small te 'installation' would still comply with building regs, because overall heatloss was still within limits.

No matter what you think it all means, that is, as I discovered, the letter of the law, I spent two years 2000-2002 reading the sodding building regulations. What they say is that 'standards for heat loss MUST be met and these CAN be met by the following methods:'. And then you are into details of wall and windows construction and so on, but they don't say that these

*must* be met by the following methods.

Since they weren't written by the EU, at the behest of double glazing companies...like renewable energy rules are.

In practice the building inspector will accept any of the methods outlined in the regulations as meeting the regulations, but, as I discovered, if you can prove to him that any given alternative construction *also* meets heatloss regulations - like stuffing a wall full of lambswool, or having it made from 2 meter thick granite blocks, lined with interlined hanging tapestries...and single glazed arrow slits for windows, he is duty bound to accept that, as well.

I had a long argument with my BI over whether or not guttering was necessary - part of the house is thatched, so cant have any, but part was tiled, and although the BRs are very clear on what form guttering should take *if it is employed* there is no clear guideline as to whether in fact it is needed at all.

In the end I stuck it in because I thought it would save the walls a bit from rain. And it didn't cost much

I mention this because it emphasises the point that the BRs are written to achieve certain results, not to specify how those results are to be achieved.

What matters is *overall* heatloss. FENSA is a guarantee that the

*rooms* with new windows do in fact meet that standard,

Although how they do that if they don't put in wall insulations as well, is moot.

[The Natural Philosopher]

In the end climate change of the CO2 kinds was a scientific idea, that was hooked to an ecological meme that was, in the context of a normal short term <40 years period of extremely mild global warming then fudged with 'positive feedback so it looked like all the (natural) warming was down to CO2.

A most convenient lie, as it turned out.

But the longer it went on the more likely it was that entirely natural warming would in fact deviate from the rising CO2, and rebut the theory. That happened about 12 years ago.

That was when CAGW stopped being science, and became marketing.

[whisky-dave]

'we' weren;t around or rather the 'we' never really existed a 3 million+ years ago, to either recorded it or predict it on TV.

[Roland Perry]

In message <sl931u$dga$ [e-mail], at 15:23:57 on Tue, 26 Oct

2021, The Natural Philosopher [e-mail] remarked:

Sure they aren't part of those building regs? I know when I had my last lot fitted, in an extension, calculating all the thermal stuff was essential to getting building regs approval.

[Robin]

I'm struggling to fit that with the way the Approved Documents treat a replacement window. They proceed on the basis the window is a controlled fitting to which Part L applies (I had thought on the basis that Part L catches not just "thermal elements" but also "other parts of the building fabric". And that that doesn't necessarily require the whole wall (including windows) to be brought up to current standards because reg 23 only requires that where there's a "renovation" of more than 50% of a thermal element?s surface area.

[Tim Streater]

Yes. It means that the DG company can just come and do them, and Building Control doesn't have to be bothered.

[alan_m]

With LED lighting a higher price doesn't necessary equate to higher quality.

The same is true of plumbing fitments. Quality UK produced items are often cheaper than low quality Chinese imports - if you shop around and not buy from the sheds or amazon.

Companies also use various brands on identical items and price some of them for those who really believe that a higher price means better quality.

[Chris Bacon]

No, I don't suppose you do. HTH.

[whisky-dave]

It's not just the temerature though is it, with rising co2 levels would affect brain delevopment. Sea levels were also much high 3 million years ago meaning less land , then there's the weather system, and the fact that 'humans' of that time would have no medical help to counter any viruses , plagues , also making 'inteligent life' difficult to get going. Lok how long it too and we donlt really know how so called inteligence evolved or why, biologicaly the human brain got larger, this didn;t really happen in other animals, as they changed in differnt ways as the enviroment changed, mostley they got smaller physically.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Yes. I of course have been talking about whole house building standards. Upgrading has always been a grey area.

I remember standing in a cottage with a listed buildings conservator and a bulding inspector discussing a staircase that had been removed that was almost a ladder with very low head clearance at the top. The building inspector said that no staircase could be approved without raising the ceiling height and reducing the staircase slope. The listed buildings bird said that that would Contravene the Listing.

"What about if we just *repair* it, and put it back?" said the hapless owner... "Then it isn't a material alteration, and building regulations don't apply" said the building inspector. "And the look and feel will not have been altered" said the Listed Buildings Bird.

The regulations surrounding 'material alterations' are very weird. And a total fudge. I think the thinking is that if the windows are good enough so that the whole room WOULD meet thermals specs if the rest of the room were insulated is the way they view that.

But as with most things its a way to put more red tape into building work and squeeze out amateurs

Doesnt mean a damned thing.