OT: Tethering a BlackBerry: SMTP issue.

I might argue that this is diy issue as, away from my usual access point I can't get access to official routes to answer this until I've solved it.
Some pretty savvy folks out there may have the answer - possibly I suspect, one I won't really like!
Anticipating a need to connect away from home and normal access points I indulged in a new BlackBerry 'Curve', which comes with software that allows one to 'tether' it to a laptop by usb and use it as a wireless modem.
Before leaving home I did manage to glean the info that virgin's access point address was simply 'goto.virginmobile.uk': this did indeed prove to be sufficient info to get on line with (though with a speed of less than 100k/sec it is scarcely worth trying, as it can take ten mins to open even the signing in page at virgin...). At least, I thought, it will be easier to write emails and news messages on the laptop than on the BB and I could just send them through.
Not so, it seems. Now I have one of those awkward accounts that used to be ntl, then virgin, and now virgin passed to google. There has already been trouble with the mail settings, with some getting away with some ports but ntl others and some needing SSL but not others. And, of course virgin's mobile network goes through T-mobile, so it's all a bit complex for my overstressed brain.
Anyhow, I find I can receive mail and news to the laptop via the blackberry, but the only thing I can *send* from the laptop is news to this eternal-september server. No matter what combination of ports and security I try I either get eternal 'connecting' or a message like:
An unknown error has occurred. Account: 'xxxx, Server: 'SMTP.ntlworld.com', Protocol: SMTP, Server Response: '421 aamtaout03-winn.ispmail.ntl.com connection refused from [149.254.186.236]', Port: 465, Secure(SSL): Yes, Server Error: 421, Error Number: 0x800CCC67
Actually I'm now not getting downloads from the virgin news server either:
Account: Spamletnews.cable.ntlworld.com Server: news.virginmedia.com Protocol: NNTP Port: 119 Secure(SSL): 1 Code: 800ccc0f
And for send: Outlook Express could not post your message. Subject 'test', Account: 'Spamletnews.cable.ntlworld.com', Server: 'news.virginmedia.com', Protocol: NNTP, Port: 119, Secure(SSL): Yes, Error Number: 0x800CCC0F
Now, virgin news uses 'highwinds' and virgin/ntl mail google but neither is letting me send anything through the phone, though I can access/send mail *on*/*from* the phone with no hassle other than the ages it takes to enter stuff from a tiny keypad.
Anyone know what gives, and if there is a way round: or is every server bar e-s simply bouncing stuff from tethered phones?
Appols if this is long and ot, but I may be stuck in this primative communication mode for 6weeks and I'm tearing my hair out already! Thank goodness I set up the eternal-september when ms pulled the plug!
Cheers,
S
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Many people at work tether mobiles, but they have traditionally avoided BlackBerrys for this purpose as these are well behind Nokia and others in supporting 3G. That's probably why you don't get much speed, although I'm not familiar with specific models.
Sorry, can't comment on the rest. You probably need a newsgroup or forum for your ISP.
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The phone will be using the mobile phone companies S|MTP server, they may well be blocking all others. If you set the laptop to use the same one it will probably work. Google smtp <mobile operator> to see what to use.
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On Tue, 15 Jun 2010 00:21:52 +0100, "Spamlet"

The ntl smtp server doesn't like your mobile IP. It's not firewalling at the mobile carrier end, it is the mail server configuration.
I've tried port 587 ("new" port for email clients to talk SMTP vs other mailservers) - they don't seen to have that.
As your email account is tied to your home ISP (which probably has bugger all to do with your mobile provider even if both are "Virgin" (did I read that right), this would seem fairly normal. Ring them up and ask if they have a mailserver you can use from outside of home.
Failing that, options:
a) Ditch the email account and get a non-tied one, eg GoogleMail.
b) (Bit late for this occasion unless you have someone at home to help): Install an SSH server on your home PC and *assuming* you can connect to it from outside, install SSH client on your laptop. You can now set up an SSH tunnel from your laptop to your home PC and have the laptop route email via the tunnel. The SMTP server thinks your email is coming from the PC, not the laptop. In command line form this looks like:
Laptop> ssh -L:10025:smtp.ntlworld.com:25 pc.internet.address
Set your email client on the laptop to use SMTP port 10025 and server 127.0.0.1 (itself) instead.
I'd go with a) as it's less faff, but b) can be useful with work email servers sometimes.
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On 15/06/2010 00:21, Spamlet wrote:

Yup the basic problem here is that access to SMTP and NNTP servers are usually restricted to customers of the ISP that runs them. The simplest way for the ISP to enforce this is to simply block access from any IP addresses outside of those which they allocate to their broadband customers. Hence in this case, when tethered via the phone you are connecting from an unexpected IP and don't get through.

That's because the phone is using a different set of servers for its onboard email (further complicated by the blackberry's "push" email service) - so its not comparing like for like.

There are a number of ways around this usually. One is if your virgin/ntl servers may allow authenticated access. This means that your email software needs to log in and supply username/password (typically those for the broadband account) when sending or posting.
Another solution for email is to try logging in via IMAP - this is always authenticated. However on low speed links it is less than ideal.
Another option is to use third party mail servers etc. For example, if you have a gmail account, you can enable external SMTP access to that, and use that via the tether to send (you can specify whatever from address you like so that it is not obvious to recipients that you are sending via gmail. Same applies for news - using eternal September or a giganews account should also work since they are not restricted via address block.
You could even try using VNC to remote control your desktop from the laptop and send from the desktop remotely.
If you want to get clever, you could run a simple email server on your desktop and talk to that from the mobile, and have it relay messages.
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John.

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Thanks for the tips John, though I think the 'fixes' are a bit beyond me at the moment - even setting up a new gmail account will be very slow via this BB 'modem'. I have tried using the email account logon/password but not got through. Though the number of permutations of settings is so high, that it's difficult to be sure I have tried them all.
I tried IMAP, which got very confusing as it then started downloading hundreds of long forgotten mails, and duplicating them in several folders. And it still wouldn't let me post through the phone via the laptop.
It is particularly irritating that virgin/ntl will let me download mail but not send. And that I can't even compose on line from my hotmail account because it takes an age just to open a folder, and even to sign in because the web pages are so full of junk that even with everything blocked that I can, tings tend to time out before I can even finish signing in.
Shame none of these devices these days come with any useful accounts of what they can and can't do: reading what came with the BB and its help files tells me next to nothing. Should have researched all this in advance, but it's one of those things you only really find out about when you try to do something and find you can't.
Good to know the knowledgebase at uk.d-i-y is as wide as I anticipated though.
S
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On Tue, 15 Jun 2010 12:29:17 +0100, "Spamlet"

GPRS is dreadful (<64kbit IIRC). EDGE is better but still slow. Have you got 3G on that Blackberry? That is reasonable speed.

Have a look at your advanced IMAP settings - should be some options under "sychronisation" or "storage" that govern whether it caches the entire message or just the headers. Should be able to set that on a per folder basis too (at least in Thunderbird).
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wibbled:

Thanks Tim: it says 'EDGE' for Wi Fi; and GPRS, so presumably this means no 3G. Looks like the well-meaning buyer in a hurry had a fast one pulled on her by the Virgin sales people... The net icon shows a speed of around 115k - (but then on our LAN at home it says 100meg but when we internet frog it it is usualy more like 2meg... I'm not going to waste any more ks finding out from here though!)

...The Virgin people who write to tell me three days after my inquiry that they do not advise me tethering the BB they just sold on us, as this would "use the *unlimited* data up very quickly"!!!
They also tell me to use the BB's setting for T-moble in the 'modem', but neglect to tell me what I had already found out: that it needed to have 'goto.virginmobile.uk' added as the access point before it will actually work!

Also you should all be pleased to know that I have managed to retrieve pop/smtp settings for my windows live 'hotmail', and at last have one email account that will actually let me send from OE. Hooray!!
However, I think the BB is one toy that is soon going to be making its way back to the shop
Ta for the help. UK.d-i-y, deserves an upgrade to UK do *anything*!
S
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On Tue, 15 Jun 2010 19:02:16 +0100, "Spamlet"

Not without 3G it won't ;-o
Don't worry about that...

I've been looking at tethering on my recon 3G iPhone. O2 charge lots for this, but there are some hacks. But the hack conditions have lots of weird prequisites depending on OS version and carrier and various other things.
Sadly I'm on firmware 3.1.3 - still waiting for a jailbreak that's confirmed good. They have cracked it in principle but I'm waiting for a proper crack, then some O2 customers to not say it shafted their phone ;->
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wibbled:

Keep us posted!
:-) S
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On 15/06/2010 19:02, Spamlet wrote:

EDGE is 2.5G of sorts - a tweaked up version of GPRS. 3G includes a bunch of standards like UMTS and CDMA. So its faster than bog standard GSM on its own, but not close to the theoretical max of several Mbit/sec achievable on 3G (with emphasis on the theoretical!)

The LAN is just reporting the speed of the ethernet interface, so 10 or 100 Mbit/sec typically. The modem may well report the actual ADSL sync speed.

presumably in "unlimited" time!

Well done ;-)

Well, don't blame it for all the problems - and just think of the stuff you can learn how to fix!
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On 15/06/2010 12:29, Spamlet wrote:

To speed things up a bit, use firefox if you have it. Make sure you have adblock installed. Turn off javascript and even images if needs be. That should still get you a usable web on some sites - even at GSM speeds (9k6 bps!)

Well if you have working pop3 settings, there is a reasonable bet the same username and password that you used to download pop3 email will also work with authenticated SMTP.

If its downloading long forgotten mails, it suggests you have not got your pop3 settings set to delete email from the server once downloaded.

Well the mechanisms are (typically) separate and unrelated - so its not too surprising.

Well the BBs probably have the most sophisticated email handling capabilities of any mobile (its been their corporate sales piece for a while).
However once you are just using the device as a soap on a rope modem, then the problems you face are nothing to do with the phone at all really (assuming that your sim allows the basic concept of using the phone as a modem at all - which your obviously does)
Part of the confusion is that you have a computer setup to work with one ISP's email system, but you are connecting it via two different ISPs each with their own systems (don't be fooled by the fact they share the virgin name!) Hence some things break when you use the settings for one while connected via the "other". POP3 (email retrieval) was designed for this sort of scenario, and hence works ok. SMTP was not originally, although has had the authentication capabilities grafted on later in life. The default for many email programs in many cases is to not use the authentication. In outlook express you can turn it on on the Tools | account settings... dialogue.

It would not be the first time (today) that I have explained to someone how to get email on a BB! ;-)
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Got adblock; hadn't thought of Java; also deleted or blanked out of the startup update progs (Google updater just has to be deleted as it always turns itself back on) including the BB's own one that has no working 'off' button! They just love you to use those infinite bytes even before you start! Apart from this the '250meg odd BB Desktop Manager' seems to do next to nothing, but I can't find a way to connect through the phone without it grrr.

Nah, it seems clear they are blocking SMTP from the T-mobile server, but it's just poss I may have missed something in three day's guessing. Presumably the hotmail is getting through as MS is not blocking TM.

No I don't do that as I never know what I'm going to be accessing from and don't want to lose stuff. Mind you, I think the IMAP must have a different download identifier file as a lot more stuff than I thought was on the server seemed to be trying to come down before I pulled the plug on it!

Yes I can't really fault what comes to the phone, it's just a lot more fiddly than a full keyboard so not really a huge advantage over sms for someone with fingers like mine! Took about an hour over one mail yesterday though I may get faster...

Main dead weight is the 'BB desktop manager' it's dead as a dodo compared with the nokia 'suite'.

I've been doing that/and off, rather a lot lately! ;-)

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On 15/06/2010 23:01, Spamlet wrote:

Turning off automatic updates for windows and your AV software can also make a difference - its not uncommon on first internet contact that these things want to swallow a number of megs. Not something you want on a limited bandwidth connection.

If they are blocking SMTP then it is usually because they have a SMTP sever they want you to direct email through, or sometimes they insist on you using a secure connection for SMTP. So checking if you get a different result by turning on SSL encryption would also be prudent.
As a quick check, you can (in a command prompt):
telnet name_of_server 25
to see if you can reach what you expect to be a working server. (nslookup name_of_server will verify if the server name actually exists).
Assuming you do get a connection you can manually try logging in with HELO
that should get the welcome message.

If you need access from multiple places, then access exclusively via IMAP can make for less confusion since you don't have to worry about messages being "consumed" by one platform thus making them no longer available on another.

Yup - completely different.

;-) Yup, some are better than others it has to said. The BB touchscreen models suck big time!

Yup, its not particularly smart.
You ought to be able to set up a dial up connection using the phone with the normal windows dial up networking capabilities and ignore the phone manager altogether if you want.
If you need to see what comms the desktop manager is having with the phone during setup, you may find a copy of Mark Russionvich's Portmon utility quite handy. (search for sysinternals portmon - now part of MS technet). Quite often that can snoop on the comms and reveal the one vital incatation that you are missing from your config!
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John.

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Yes: that's what I meant by turning off everything with an obvious update. As I said, the hardest ones to turn off are the google updaters, and I only get round this by deleting the whole g update folder.

That's interesting, didn't know that. I'm alright with my hotmail for now though.
I'm sure the bods at virgin - from their replies to me - don't know what their mixed up virgin/ntl/google/tmobile hybrid nightmare is doing at all. They have mailed to say there will be major works going on 19th-20th, so it will probably all change again after!

Ah: that would probably be what I need, though not something to play with with my *infinitrly/limited'* capablities at the mo! I did spend some time trying to find somewhere else to put the 'goto.virginmobile.uk' bit, and the password for the phone. At the mo it can only be entered via the BB manager. So even with the right T-mobile dial up settings, the MS software has nowhere to enter these other requirements.
S

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On Tue, 15 Jun 2010 00:21:52 +0100, "Spamlet"

Virgin do not allow connections to their SMTP server from outside of their network - they do, however, allow connection to their IMAP and POP3 servers from any IP address. This results in being able to retrieve email but not send from mobile devices.
The answer is to connect to virgin's POP3/IMAP servers for receiving mail and your mobile operators SMTP server for sending. As long as you authenticate to the outbound SMTP server using the username/password provided by the mobile operator, they should allow mail through - this allows you to use your normal email address
I have an old ntlmail.com email account and I can do this by using the O2 SMTP server and authenticating using my O2 username/password - all sent mail shows my correct email address, not an O2 one.
I believe that the T-mobile SMTP server is 'smtp.t-email.co.uk' and you'll have to set your mail client to authenticate separately to the outbound server - I don't know if they'll require SSL for this or not, I'd try without first
Perry
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waxed lyrical about:

That's interesting Perry, thanks for the tip about the T-mobile server: Viirgin have been typically useless and very slow in responding. They are more concerned with redefining the word 'Unlimited' so that they can appear to offer a good deal, when in fact they are going to clamp down hard on anyone who actually tries to use their account to the full.
We have a virgin package for home phone tv and broadband, but work mobiles were already on Orange, and used Nokia phones. As we didn't want to mix up home and work uses we looked at adding the BlackBerry to the virgin package. All done in rather a hurry I'm afraid, so we only ran into the glitches afterwards (One of the most shocking being the unexpected absence of a deleted items on the BB's 'email' function - for a novice mini keyboard user with shaky fingers, this was asking for trouble!).
The thing is though, that 'virgin's network' isn't virgin's: it's T-mobile's: but they still don't let T-mobile IP addresses past their server! All very counterintuitive - especially as they are now Google as far as mail is concerned anyway! Anyhow now that you have given me the T-mobile server... I'll try swapping this in one of my accounts, see if I can post this... Ah: first glitch: nowhere to put this info in a news server setup dialogue, so I will have to keep with eternal-september for news posting...
...And after a few tries with the T-mobile server you've given, I notice the T*email* bit, and see why it won't work. I don't have an email ac with T-mobile so I can't log into it in the way you do with O2. Still I've got my work via Hotmail and eternal-september so I can manage: and as the BB is so slow and as virgin says, very expensive to use as well, I'll only be using it to post the odd message here, and send to my hotmail any more fiddly emails that would be a pain on the BB. I will continue to try and explain to virgin that if they really have to use other people's networks to run 'their' phones, they really ought not to be blocking mail that comes from them!
Cheers,
S
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Register for a free Gmail account and use their SMTP server. You can use any SMTP server that you have login details for.
Why is the blackberry expensive to use? Don't you have a data allowance included?
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On 18/06/2010 23:22, dennis@home wrote:

Unless the ISP is blocking connection out of their network on port 25
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John Rumm wrote:

In which case try SMTPS on port 465 (not officially allocated but commonly used).
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