OT: Purveyers of animal suffering 'fighting back'.

[T i m]

<snip>

Added to the list, thanks.

Cheers, T i m

[NY]

So is it "better" (though still not acceptable to you) if animals live in the wild and humans trap and kill them to eat, as opposed to keeping them in farms so they can kill them to eat?

The decision to farm animals was made a good many centuries (maybe millennia) ago, so why should we be more concerned about it now that we ever were in the past? Is it partly because until recently we didn't have non-animal substitutes for transport, leather (shoes, belts etc).

Is it wrong for other carnivores to kill to eat? Are we different because we are the only ones (as far as we know!) that can question whether it is morally right?

Should humans have evolved a lifestyle where we don't use animals (only human labour) for transporting goods (food, fuel) from point of produce to point of sale? And what if the humans which are used for transport, raising water from wells etc, is conscripted (slaves) rather than willing? That raises its own ethical issues, and maybe many people rationalise a scale of what is tolerable, with a human life being "worth" more than an animal's.

To hijack another issue of the moment, maybe we should be saying that *all* lives matter (and not just a specific group).

[T i m]

'Better' like giving your slave ally chains rather than the heavy iron ones?

Going along with what I believe to be the spirit of your question, from my POV, a wild animal living a natural life is not being exploited as much as an animal artificially bred and effectively held captive with no chance of escaping an early death (that bit being

*guaranteed* to happen). *IF* someone has to kill animals to *survive*, obviously the catching and killing should be as humane as possible (not as practical / affordable).

Because we (humans) are evolving, growing in number and that requires more food, so more animal deaths (at holocaust levels) and less other foods for us.

Yup, that's all part of the 'bigger picture' on all of it.

Loads of things would be considered sustainable or acceptable if done at low levels and where necessary but that may not carry forward into mass levels.

If it's natural and 'in nature' then of course not.

Basically yes, it's 'not right' when we have the choice and opportunity not to.

Basically yes.

No, we are (and have been for ages) evolving to take all that sort of labour away from living creatures and onto machines. People used to pump water, then we used donkeys / whatever, then we used waterwheels or wind power.

Of course, and how some think it's 'perfectly natural' for us to behave like animals when our very difference is that we have evolved to out-perform them (not naturally of course, technologically).

Considering a pig to be 'just' food because it isn't as intelligent as us is no different than thinking someone who was mentally disabled to be food.

Of course and for many, that is and has been the case for a very long time of course.

Like, most people wouldn't kill and eat a dog, but they might (pay someone else to) kill and eat a pig but without being able to provide any logical justification for such a differentiation (on the grounds of human survival).

In this respect the Chinese don't suffer the same level of logical inconsistency as we do (in the West), given that they will eat most things. That said, even they are moving away from eating dogs (and cats) because of strong public / social pressure.

Once we start to see how our speciesism is illogical, we will start to consider our actions and look to alternative foods that don't require the taking of something that was never ours to take (when there is no

*need*).

Cheers, T i m

[Tim Lamb]

In message [e-mail], T i m [e-mail]> writes

How much are you willing to bet?

I have responded here under an OT header where there was discussion on your purpose in continuing promoting your personal lifestyle choice. I don't recall ever criticising that choice, just some of the propaganda and reasoning that led up to it.

I don't think I have said that. Just that it is not relevant to this group. I am not critical of Vegans, why do you consider you have the right to criticise me in an unrelated location?

To further rattle your cage, my tenant has 5 new born Hereford suckler calves which will be gracing someone's table in 18 months to 2 years time. Your preference is that they should never have been born and the meadows feeding their mothers should be put to some other use.

[T i m]

<snip>

No, it will, it will *have* to be.

That's been happening for years but only get's public attention when something happens to highlight it. This is how all sorts of injustices have been 'revealed' and changed throughout history.

Yup, that will be a vegan world.

You can't justify the gassing of a pig whilst caring for a dog, it doesn't make sense, especially when there is no *need* to rear, keep and kill the pig to survive.

Cheers, T i m

[Spike]

There's no need to keep a dog to survive either, so that argument fell rather flat.

How's your own dog getting on, considering the unnatural state in which it lives?

[T i m]

I guess time will tell.

But that isn't what I'm doing. I

I should think not, it's difficult to criticize someone who isn't causing something to suffer (especially by someone who is).

No such thing. You only see it as that because of your vested interests and conditioning. Unless you are labouring under the false assumption that there is no suffering (human and animal) in the meat / egg / dairy industries?

Or do you except there is suffering but it's 'ok' (because it's not you or your family, it's not 'illegal' and you like the taste)?

You think it's perfectly acceptable to cause animal suffering and a very early death for you to eat, even though you have no necessity to eat them?

I CBA to go back and find every thread I've posted re animal cruelty that you have complained about having to read.

But Brexit and loads of other stuff (that you happily join in with) is?

Of course you are, because of all of the emotional language and BS you come out with to try to justify your position. Veganism isn't a 'religion, it's not 'a belief', it's all about the cold hard FACT that animals suffer in our use of them as food.

I have the right to criticise anything that I see to be causing unnecessary cruelty to others in any location. This includes here, especially if I have the decency to mark it clearly OT and with a heading that clearly explains the subject / content. I really don't think you realised just how biased / blinkered you are, but it's perfectly understandable *that* you are. ;-(

Correct. You (they) wouldn't miss what you don't have.

Yup, as they are doing with re-wilding all over the place. Or growing crops that we can eat directly.

You talk as if you enjoy being some sort of goD, creating life and therefore having the right to take it for no real reason, other than you *like* how their flesh and secretions taste?

Tim, I get how / why this is all so very confusing / 'out there' for you, as I imagine it would be for anyone who have been brought into this industry at an early age and so *accepted* (conditioned / indoctrinated) that it was all perfectly ok.

And there was a time when man may have *needed* to to survive, we now don't need to and potentially further, shouldn't be, to survive.

Cheers, T i m

[NY]

The point that I was making is that for non-vegans, the "that's good enough" level is still a lot greater than zero. And if it's already at this level (as judged by the majority) there won't be a popular will by the majority of the population to change things any further. Maybe over time veganism will gather more and more supporters and a point will be reached where there *is* a majority in favour of reducing the (ab)use of animals to absolute zero. Just as slavery was once acceptable but is now universally condemned. Standards and habits change.

I just hope I'm not alive when the eating of meat becomes banned - because I enjoy my food too much, and a life where the only things that may legally be eaten are plant-based is not one that I would see as being worth living - as opposed to merely existing. But I suspect that personal preference over what people eat carries no sway with vegans - it's "you will eat these things and you will like it or lump it". Very dictatorial.

Maybe by the time veganism becomes mandatory, science will have progressed to the point that plant-based or artificial meat substitutes have become indistinguishable from meat, milk, leather, and the "but it's not meat" argument will cease to exist. I'd become vegan if indistinguishable substitutes were available, just as I'd buy an electric car if it was an indistinguishable substitute as regards range and refuelling time to a petrol/diesel car. It may well happen, but it's not there yet by a long way.

For me, the knowledge that I'm saving the planet or saving animals is not a good enough payback on its own: there's a "what's in it for me, what will be the downsides?" issue.

[Fredxx]

Which rightly states, "redress when a person is victimised on account of colour, ethnicity, national origin, race, colour, ethnic origin, religion, disability, gender identity, HIV/AIDS status or sexual orientation".

In which of these would you put a mindless fanatic, bent on forcing his diet onto others.

[Fredxx]

Is that a yes or no?

Since we are a higher animal and need to eat meat and meat products as part of a healthy diet, we arrange for others to do the trapping and slaughtering for us.

You are free to campaign to improve animal welfare standards, but it's not something you would consider.

If we carried on drinking natural milk, we wouldn't need to cut down Amazonian Rainforests to supply tour milk and Tofurkies.

Then campaign for Chinese style birth control. The population will only expand to match food production, where it's meat or alternatives.

Thank you, it is natural for man to eat meat swo you finally endorse meat eaters. We've coma a long way.

Quite, you have the choice to not eat meat. I have no desire to force you to eat a pork sausage

It is another species and one with the lowest intelligences. Would you extend your views to ants?

It is logical. There is a hierarchy. When was the last time you saw a lion being eaten by another (lower) animal?

[Fredxx]

If you can't see the word, "resentful" in that page you are truly blind.

[John Rumm]

What makes you think its suffering?

We have been breading animals in one way or another for millennia - so again; define natural.

You do talk allot of nonsense... You are presupposing that a "life in the wild" is somehow easier or better, and yet very few people on earth could even survive a "life in the wild". Even then it would be a bloody miserable life. Early societies realised that millennia ago and started to organise and innovate ways of not having to live a life in the wild.

I bet you you choose to live in permanent shelter, and take advantage of shops that sell food, energy delivered direct to your property etc.

So why do you wish to cause animals more suffering by denying them those same facilities that enhance your quality of life so much? That's cruelty.

Is it easier for pig to "find food and shelter" on its own, or to shelter in a pen that a man built for it, and eat from a trough that a man delivers food too on a regular basis?

Is it more humane to meet its end being savaged to death by a wild animal, or to be stunned with an electric shock and know nothing further about the end of its days?

I think you will find the basic message is the same: Things still eat other things in the "mesh".

For pretty much all man's time on earth, there has been no other option for us either.

Now one could argue that there is a choice (for wealthy men in developed societies at least), but that is the thing about choice - you don't have to chose one way or the other.

I would not know - when I watched a pigs being slaughtered, they were stunned with an electric shock before being hoisted up and having their throats slit. They did not seem to be stressed or even aware that anything was going on. (they were only brought into a holding pen three or four at a time)

They almost certainly have...

Much as we are evolving more thumb dexterity to better interact with smart phones!

You seem to be in effect saying that the human species should have been "put down" before it really got started then. Since exploiting animal muscle power, and relying on them for food and clothing were the only ways that early hunter gatherers were going to meet the minimum level of Energy Return on Energy Investment (ERoEI) to even survive as a species.

Yup true. In which case I will exercise my free will and make the choice to go and have a toasted bagel with some cream cheese, ham, and tomato for dinner.

Yup, why not - after all I still use USENET...

Yup but they are also represent human life, and I *do* value that more dearly than animal life.

[NY]

I've got a lot of evolution still do do, in that case ;-) I find my thumb to be the worst digit to use because a) it has the largest surface in contact with a tiny icon or even tinier key on a virtual keyboard, and b) if you hold the phone in the hand whose thumb you are using, there is a more limited range of the screen that it can reach than with a longer finger.

I always use my index finger of either hand (it doesn't matter which), holding the phone in the opposite hand. My wife always uses her middle finger, maybe because it is the longest and so is the first to touch the screen. Neither of us can do it one-handed (sorry, that sounds rather "ooo matronnnnnnnnn!") ;-)

[T i m]

Till something happens that causes them to think / see differently?

And hence why education and advocacy is important, for the animals, humans and the heath of the world.

It's not a maybe mate, it's already happening.

Agreed.

Yup, and fox hunting, badger baiting, keeping veal in a crate etc etc.

Of course, as we evolve / progress.

I'm not sure why you conflate those two things in the same sentence? Do you assume we (the 4 of us and the millions of other vegans) don't 'like / enjoy' food? We have enjoyed 99,99% of the vegan meals I have cooked over the last year (not 100% because like anything new you try, there will be some stuff you don't like ...), we are rarely hungry, still eat 'junk food' / vegan crisps / chocolate but have been loosing weight whilst still being fit enough for regular 7+ mile walks.

How much vegan food have you tried though?

Are you willing to pull the trigger on a bolt gun and watch the cow drop to it's knees or press the button the moves the pigs into the gas and listen to them screaming for 30+ seconds till they pass out? They are the thoughts that should be in your mind when you are deciding what you 'like' to eat.

See above. We are far from 'merely existing' on our current food choices, far from it. And if your life revolves around eating animal flesh then you are already one of the 'outliers'.

Just as you have already agreed it doesn't matter how well you keep your slaves, doing so at all is already wrong.

No, it's 'why do you think you have the right to cause that animal pain and suffering'. Very supportive / natural.

The only reason you think / say what you do is because it's not the future yet. You have been brought up, conditioned and marketed to to consider the breeding and keeping and killing of animals to eat is still acceptable for the vast majority when it isn't.

It won't be 'mandatory, it will be 'the norm', and anyone wanting to eat meat can eat the lab grown stuff and the rest will carry on with their plant based foods?

Exactly.

Indistinguishable from what? What you *happen* to have been brought up eating? What if you had been brought up in a vegan family and never had meat / milk / eggs. Would you then think that you would kill an animal just to see what it tasted like (and if so, which)?

Or you adjust your outlook to what's sustainable and isn't going to cause the premature deaths of people you drive past?

It is already happening and why they are extending the ULE zone in London and elsewhere in the world.

All the things people choose / continue to do generally have a cost and that cost is often born out by the innocent.

Agreed, change on that scale, especially when you are trying to get people to understand / accept they don't have the *right* to do stuff, takes time.

Of course. What's in veganism for us is that we aren't killing ~200 animals a year each that didn't need to die.

Luckily, there are still quite a few people who are altruistic, who aren't completely selfish, use ideals, ethics and morals to set their compass, not just what they can get away with within the law.

The logic of killing animals to eat is the same as those who litter saying 'it keeps someone in a job'. What they don't comprehend is the cost to society and the globe, not just financial but the health (mental or otherwise) and well being.

We are told to cut out processed meats, to cut back on all other meats, to eat more fruit and veg, to be kind (not cruel) to animals, to respect / assist (not destroy) nature, to consider how we use the resources available and consider pollution such creates. We should also be considering all the millions of lives lost, both human and other animals because of cancer, antibiotic resistance and the zoonotic diseases that are so prevalent around man and his manipulation of animals for food.

What part of that 'bigger picture' don't people get?

The answer, it's more comfortable for them to hide away from the truth, the facts and just busy themselves away with their selfish and insular existence ... It's all about 'me'.

"I don't want to give up causing animals unnecessary pain and suffering" is what "I couldn't give up meat" actually means.

Cheers, T i m

[NY]

I'm sure you *do* enjoy your more restricted (meat-free) diet, otherwise presumably you wouldn't do it. Or maybe you put ethical concerns before personal preference, whereas for me it's the opposite way round.

As a matter of interest (I'm curious) have you been vegan all your life (eg were you raised by vegans) or did you change later in life after you'd already eaten meat and meat products? If the latter, did you miss meat until you got used to not having it - is it a craving that eventually goes away?

I actively hate vegetables (*), especially cooked ones and especially leaf/stalk/seed-pod ones (beans, peas, broccoli, sprouts, cabbage, cauliflower) that have been boiled or steamed, as opposed to root veg like carrots and parsnips, and mushrooms, that I love (**). I wonder how I'd cope if those (plus nuts and cereals) were all I could eat for ever more. Would I learn to love them and not to see an endless pile of foul-tasting greenery on my plate that spoils an otherwise nice meal. Maybe I would ;-) I hope so! That's what I was meaning about "would eating/life still be enjoyable" (for me)...

I don't doubt that you are fitter and healthier for being at least vegetarian and (in your case) vegan.

(*) To the point that I have to force myself to eat them because they are good for me and because it is a socially convention to eat veg with a meal. I tend to eat them first so I can then enjoy the rest of my meal, untainted.

(*) Though I still prefer carrots and mushrooms as a raw snack rather than as an accompaniment to a meal.

[Bev]

Do you not see the hypocrisy in the above?

I am most impressed by the level of patronising you have reached here.

But, as always T i m, you are as correct as you usually are.

[Tim Lamb]

In message [e-mail], T i m [e-mail]> writes

So, not willing to put money where your mouth is?

Are you admitting wasting space?

And what colour is that particular pot?

Call it what you like but you can't point to me criticising your choice.

I think you need to go somewhere else and do it. I gave you a link so you could take your views up directly with active farmers.

I don't think you could grow Soy here. Bit of malting Barley on the rising ground perhaps.

And this annoys you for some reason?

How old were you when epiphany happened?

Perhaps but kindly go somewhere else to tell them.

[T i m]

Do I enjoy the food as much as before? Yes, but not *specifically* because I prefer the tests / texture, but because no animals have had to suffer or die in the making of it?

Then I'm not sure what that says about you? It's your conscience I guess and so it's you that has to live with it. The real shame is that animals have to suffer and die because of it.

Nope, we only went vegan last January (so a year ago). Daughter has been a veggie for a few years now and thought that was helping, till she learned that in some ways are worse than the meat industries). She also was taking in by all the 'RSPCA Approved' and 'Red Tractor' marketing lies and BS. Our biggest regret (al 4 of us) is that we didn't do it sooner.

That said, I have never been a big meat eater (probably bad memories of eating liver as a kid) and had been progressively eating less over the last few years (partly out of the guilt I was feeling for doing so). I can't remember the last time I had a steak or some chops, I've never had duck or pheasant or rabbit or a 'rack of lamb'. It's all too close to things we admire in nature or keep as pets etc.

I've not drunk cows milk (or had cheese / yogurt etc) for a good few years now, since advised off it by my doctor to try to get rid of a regular mucus cough. It worked.

I would say it's more to do with the change of routine that I noticed, rather than the food itself.

Yes, of course, however, there are no cravings for us because the 'cost' of succumbing to them would mean suffering / death of an animal that didn't want to suffer or die and I can no longer expect them to pay such a price for something I could well have not been eating in the first place, so would never had missed?

I'd have to say I'm not a big fan of veg either, in that I wouldn't look forward to a plate of them on their own. I know that I should eat them for my health though (Mums voice in my head to 'eat up my greens' etc) and at the time, that wasn't helped by me being a 'supertaster' and finding the taste of say sprouts, very bitter. Now I'll actively put some sprouts in with the other veg for the change (given I do all our cooking etc).

'Nuts and cereals' ... ;-)

If you just had that on your plate you wouldn't be eating the vegan food that I know!

The pint is, there are *many* more choices foods that are not meat then those that are. If you aren't a straight veg fan, then have the veg you do like, plus any fruit you like.

Pass ... I don't eat that sorta veg very often (basically because we have what we want, when we want it, fresh veg often goes off before we get round to eating it. So, rather than being forced to eat something we don't fancy at that time, and it being wasted, we stick stick to frozen veg, outside those things that generally last well, like mushrooms, potatoes, sweet potatoes, onions etc. Daughter has found us some frozen cabbage, we keep frozen mushrooms as a backup (prefer fresh then tinned), and mixed fine and chunky that are quick and you can mix / match to suit your tastes (like she might prefer the cauliflower and me the broccoli chunks). Other than the frozen French beans, peas, carrot slices, sprouts, we try to keep some tinned veg, just in case.

So last night I looked in the freezer and cupboards for our evening meal inspiration. I saw a tin of vegan chili but remember the last (first) time we had it, it was a bit hot for both of us so though I'd tone it down a bit this time.

So, a couple of onions chopped and softened in the frying pan with a splash of veg oil. Added half a bag of (frozen) vegan mince, and browned along with the onions. Half of the tin of chili (plastic top on the tin, goes in the fridge for a couple of days), a tin of chopped tomatoes and stir and simmer. In the mean time, I've boiled the kettle and tipped the boiling water into a large saucepan and added a mug of long grain rice. Once the rice has done, serve onto a warm plate, rice round the outside, chili in the middle. As it turned out, it was just right, enough chili taste to let you know it was one but not so hot as it she didn't enjoy it. We have enough chili left over for another meal each and the next time I might add some small mixed veg and serve with wholemeal pasta. I guarantee both of us will finish it off and enjoy it.

Tonight I actually fancy some veg and so will do some sausages under the grill, with microwaved then finished in the oven potatoes and a good portion of veg with gravy. Followed by an Alpro vegan yogurt.

We feel we are and many people, without any prompting (or knowing we are vegan) have stated how much thinner we both look. And I promise you, that's not because we have starved ourselves in any way, or not 'picked' on savoury snacks / crisps / chocolates along the way.

We have just got back from a shorter dog walk (~5 miles) and had a cuppa (oat milk) and a row of dark chocolate each (dark is my personal favourite). We have vegan milk chocolate as well, just she fancied a bit of mine. ;-)

For breakfast I had some porridge with some crushed seedy stuff and home made jam mixed in and for lunch I did a quick baked beans, facon and tomatoes on homemade wholemeal bread (the toaster is playing up so we tried the wholemeal bread un-toasted and enjoy it as much so that's how we will do it till I repair / replace the toaster).

See above. When you have the choice (or speak up / leave what you really don't like), only serve the veg you like .. or maybe process the veg you don't that's known to be good for you in a way that you don't notice it's presence? Like I have a bag of frozen spinach cones and often put two or three in with a meal (casserole etc) so you are getting the goodness without having the direct taste.

I don't serve myself anything I don't like. ;-)

Yeah, I've often eaten a raw carrot (and maybe a chunk of potatoes) when using some for a meal but I can't say I've ever eaten raw mushroom?

If you did want to actually try some stuff that is tasty, healthy and free from cruelty, there are loads of 'non weird' recipes out there.

I often fancy a burger and whilst there are some very good ones on the market, I would like to make my own and have some in the freezer to have as the 'meat / protein replacement for both snacks (burger, beans / peas and saute potatoes) and with veg and gravy. I find as long as you have something that replaces the bit that would be meat, you don't subconsciously miss it not being meat (although the though that it actually is makes us heave now).

eg, It's more about having the mix / ratios than the actual content, protein, veg, carbs.

The veganuary and 'Challenge22' sites have loads of vegan recipes and meal planners (if that's your thing) and if you don't want to sign up for anything, I'm happy to send you all I've downloaded (mostly PDF's) to see if anything takes your fancy.

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

Oh, absolutely, 10 quid says you can't resist joining in a animal cruelty thread over the next year? Or would it need to be more to stop you? (I don't want to stop you for me of course, I just want to stop you for you as you obviously can't deal with it, in spite of the OT:, the informative header and the factual and honest content with consequences that affect all of us).

<snip>

What?

I don't know, you are the one complaining, not me.

See, I mention the idea that animals *are* being made to suffer when exploited and eaten and you come back and accuse those not causing the suffering and exploitation of being in some sort of religious cult / fad?

What you never do is man up to the fact that animals are made to suffer and exploited but that you don't care, or admit that they are suffering and dying for no good reason, but it's 'ok by you'?

Do that then you don't need to try to counter the facts highlighted by millions of other people who see what I see and don't like it, we will all know where you stand?

What' other than every time you do you mean? Or maybe you think that my choice not to cause animals to suffer is only because of some sort of religious action or that I only do so to gain some sort of moral high ground? Do you ever actually read what you type?

And you know where you can put your advice. ;-)

And I went there, tried to sign in so that I could post but it wouldn't let me because I'm not a farmer. If you want to create an account for me (with their permission, I don't want to give anyone the opportunity to label me as a fanatic / activist / infiltrator (given how much the media like to do that anyway)) I'd be happy to take it up with them directly.

However, a 'better' way to impact the supply of something is to reduce the demand. This you can do without having to get a load of farmers hot under the collar because they can't see why they shouldn't continue being purveyors of all the pain, suffering and death.

Maybe not yet, but it's not just soy we can eat is it?

There you go, viable and valuable (as in a useable crop) with none of the issues, drugs, pain, suffering of pandemics associated with livestock. That that's *exactly* what they are already doing of course, as these livestock / dairy farmers go out of business because of the lack of demand (and why they had to spend £1.5M trying to push a product that people have been previously consuming for years and so already know about?).

Yes, as any 'injustice' would upset any compassionate person?

And more of the patronising language?

Veganism was something we took on initially for January last year (so I was 63) in support of our daughter who had reached a point where the truth was too much to ignore any longer. It also happens that veganism has never been easier because of the wealth of commercial support, in turn brought about by the ever growing numbers of people caring about animals out there.

WTF should I and how feeble are you with your 'tell'? As I have said before, I'll stop posting about the issues I see about unnecessary animal cruelty and suffering when you stop being part of it and when I see you reacting against all the other OT (and OT posts not marked as such) here?

Or is it you don't mind what anyone says here, as long as it's not trying to reduce the cruelty and exploitation of animals? Maybe you really don't see it for what it is and so don't get what all the fuss is about (seems likely given the emotive words you have used to try to disparage me)?

Here, this should be right up your street//////field: ;-)

Cheers, T i m

p.s. I just heard that Elon Musk is the world richest man.

"The Tesla Model 3 is now officially vegan."

"More car companies are embracing leather-free options. Volvo?s Polestar 2 ? set to be available from 2020 ? features a completely vegan interior. And earlier this year, Nissan unveiled a prospective new design, which is kitted out in vegan leather."

"Porsche has also joined the vegan leather club. In August, the German automobile manufacturer announced its upcoming Taycan model will be available in vegan leather and tanned Club Leather. The former generates 80 percent less carbon dioxide when produced than its animal-based counterpart, notes Porsche.

The flooring of Porsche?s new vehicle will also be eco-friendly. It will feature Econyl recycled fiber, which is made from recycled fishing nets."

[Tim Lamb]

In message [e-mail], T i m [e-mail]> writes

OK You are on. Perhaps you could resist upping the stakes and stick to factual reporting?

My estimate is something like 10:1

Your words. I merely drew a comparison.

I am confident that no animals suffered while in my care. Exploitation may be an interpretation of the facts. Is a Chicken laying an egg in exchange for life, shelter, food protection from Foxes exploitation? They always seemed happy enough so, unless you got the information by cluck, I am inclined to doubt your sources.

You don't seem to mind insulting others and I see elsewhere a recent convert. Before you say it, none of my business but it does ring a few bells.

Way beyond my aspirations.

Bye.