OT - ohgodnotmoreEUreferendum

[Dave Plowman (News)]

And just how many private members bills ever get through a UK parliament?

[Jacobsen]

No we don?t.

But it isn't clear how many will chose to meet all the accession criteria because they want to join and so will be accepted. Or even how the accession criteria will change over time either.

That's a lie with the Ukraine particularly, let alone others like Georgia etc.

That's a lie too now that the EU wants Turkey to keep all those millions of 'refugees' in Turkey and may well decide to allow Turkey to join if it wants to do that. The real reason Turkey has not yet joined is because it can't decide if it wants to.

Yes, but there is a real incentive to pander to Turkey now.

Easy to claim...

But they may decide that they want to be in the EU and get their act into gear on that stuff.

How odd that the recent joiners haven't been.

Plenty of others have had it in for those that have been allowed to join.

Of course that was never true of Romania or Croatia ?

Plenty said the same thing about Romania and Poland.

[Jacobsen]

No, just that it is much less democratic than it could be.

More fool you.

And those get no say on EU policy that is forced on member countries.

And those can't even propose legislation in the European parliament.

Massive difference on who can put legislation to the vote in the respective parliaments and who decides what will be put to the vote.

It isn't just about the size of the constituency.

Plenty do and the reason those that don?t don?t bother is because they have much more limited power with what they can do than MPs.

Your biggest beef should be that all they can do is confirm or reject legislation that is presented to them by unelected bureaucrats. They can't actually initiate any legislation at all.

[Richard]

"Jacobsen" wrote in message news: [e-mail]... Fuck off rod speed.

[harry]

[harry]

As more ex-USSR satellites come into the EUSSR, it takes on more centrist control. It's what these people are used to.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Right. Making a nonsense of the immigration bit and the EU. It's very convenient for this government to blame the EU for immigrants, when over half come from outside the EU. And are totally under the control of the UK.

And as regards the NHS, remove 'immigrants' and it would collapse.

They don't set our rules on immigration. What they do require is freedom of movement within the EU for all EU citizens. Which also allows UK citizens to move freely around the EU.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

You'll be one of those who believe North Korea is democratic too, then, because it says it is?

[superdick]

Spot on.

[Tim Streater]

We're not talking about the title of a state, but what it claims to be. NK also claims to be communist, whereas it's actually a kleptocracy, not hugely different from Zimbabwe, where it looks like Mrs E-ba-gum will take over eventually.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

And, of course, Russia as it exists today. With the population apparently as much in love with their leader as NK.

[Tim Streater]

Russia has no history of democracy. This is why it failed to end up as a western-style democracy after 1989 or whenever it was, whereas many former eastern bloc countries made the transition.

Plus of course Russia suffered the Nazi invasion, which has made them a bit nervous about encroachment from the west. Not that this excuses their behaviour in Ukraine, but it's unsurprising.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

As did much of mainland Europe. ;-)

[Jacobsen]

Very few of those had any history of democracy either.

[Big Les Wade]

Adrian posted

It's very good. Thanks.

Of course it is biased in some respects, but at least it is clear about what the issues really are, rather than the "If we leave the EU we'll never be able to trade again and then WW3 will start" bollocks. And the author pretty much *tells* us where he is making his own value judgements with which others might reasonably disagree.

Good for him.

[Big Les Wade]

The point is rather this: at Westminster the government can be voted out, and a new one, which would table different legislation, voted in.

[Adrian]

Well, you can vote for your MP and for your area's MEPs. You can't vote for "the government" at Westminster, or in Strasbourg. You don't get to vote for the ministers who actually table legislation in Westminster, either. The PM appoints them.

And, no matter what legislation the government table, it's all dependent on MPs voting for or against it.

And the same applies in Europe. It's all dependent on MEPs voting for or against whatever legislation is laid by the commissioners, each one of whom is appointed by a member country's elected government every five years.

[Tim Streater]

And whom we can't get rid of, unlike ministers, MPs, uncle tom cobbley and all.

[<hgtr]

The difference is that the European Parliament can't originate legislation.

Westminster can.