OT: Listening to the MSF clock signal?

[T i m]

Years ago I built a digital (LED) MSF clock kit that had a separate receiver [1] and display modules and it worked ok for many years.

Then I then converted a std wall clock to MSF (MSF mech) and that's been running fine until yesterday and now it doesn't seem to sync (checked the battery etc). It does various things, like moves at 50% speed after sitting there for some time but doesn't seem to react as it normally does (I think it also double steps under some circumstances).

It's one where (if I remember correctly) you set it to midnight and put the battery in (or hit the button on the back) and it sorts itself out from there. When the clocks go forward or back it either speeds up or waits.

So, I don't know if it's the clock (mech) or the signal (someone has added something locally that's affecting the signal) and so I wondered if I could tune to the 60khz / AM with something?

My Yupiteru MVT-7100 scanner only goes down to 100khz. ;-(

Just for the S&G's I've ordered a more modern 60khz MSF tuner kit that has an 'Output' LED that should give me some idea if / where I can get a good MSF signal and I can also use as a front end to an Arduino MSF clock.

Cheers, T i m

[1] The old MSF kit had an output on a 3.5mm stereo jack and you could put an earpiece in there and 'listen' to the signal to aid the tuning.

p.s. As I type this, the analogue clock has *just* gone into fast mode (after 12+ hours) suggesting it's picked up a signal again??

[The Other John]

I've a vague recollection that certain Tuesdays were scheduled maintenance days when MSF was at Rugby, is it still the case?

[Chris Hogg]

This, on the MSF web site regarding maintenance and shut-downs

:

The shutdowns will take place between 10:00 and 14:00 BST in June and September, and between 10:00 and 14:00 UTC in December. The duration of each outage period will be kept to a minimum, and the signal may be back on-air prior to the times given above.

In addition to these dates, the signal is likely to be taken off-air for a two-week period during summer each year, though the transmission will be restored overnight whenever possible. The dates of this longer outage will be announced on this page and by emailed notices to registered users as soon as they are known.

[T i m]

That did flick though my mind John [1] ... but then I wasn't sure if that would cause my clock to stop? I thought they typically ran on and just adjusted themselves if they got out of sync?

Unless by complete coincidence the battery connector (single AA) failed (it was very slightly corroded) and then after cleaning the transmitter was down?

It all seems to be working fine now ... (and re-syncs quickly every time).

Cheers, T i m

[1] (scroll half way down)

[Scott]

On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 11:47:35 +0100, T i m wrote: [snip]

I see you have exactly the right name for this task:-)

[T i m]

Whilst I might have the right name I don't seem to be the right person atm. My watch stopped a couple of months ago and whilst previously I would have been instantly lost without it (often removing the battery, zapping it to gain me a few more days use and ordering a new one and fitting it), since being retired and in the lockdown, it's been less of an issue.

I did come across my watch tools the other day so I really should unscrew the back and get a new battery for it. ;-)

Funnily though, not having the wall clock reminded both of us how often we glance at that. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[Spike]

Pop along here:

Put your cursor on the very left-hand part of the waterfall display, and keep zooming in until you see the MSF signal (you might need to drag the waterfall) then click underneath the 60kHz marker to bring the filter into line. Then click the 'filter' 'narrower' button to reduce it to ~100 Hz or so and listen to the tone. You can drag the filter to get the pitch of your choice. MSF is currently S9+20 in Holland.

[T i m]

Neat. That will at least allow me to determine if the signal is actually being transmitted, even if it doesn't allow me to check if it's being received here.

Ideally I'd like a(n analogue) MSF clock with a indicator showing the reception of the signal / tone, like you often see on the digital MSF clock displays. In theory it could replace the second hand as I rarely read that as part of the time (I just use it as a stopwatch) and the fact that it's moving isn't an indicator it's receiving the time signal.

I've seen quite a nice digital wall clock with an analogue / hands type display (and other features like alarm, temperature and day/date etc) but they aren't so easy to read in very low light conditions ... and whilst they can be backlit, that usually takes some power.

So an LCD indicator of some sort (for it's low power characteristics) that can indicate in sync with the signal would be a good compromise. It could also all go inside the body of the existing clock.

Or a LCD window with the seconds displayed live (and no seconds hand). Don't need it in the dark, there if I want a short timer in the light and real-time indication I was getting the signal. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[Martin Brown]

The traditional way of doing it was slug some extra capacitance onto the LW coil of a cheap transistor radio. You want to take the resonance down from 200kHz to 60kHz so need to add about 8x whatever capacitor is already there give or take a bit of stray.

They can be tetchy particularly with thunderstorms and heavy rain about. There isn't a lot of signal to noise in that waveband!

One of my Adli/Lidl clocks uses the German DCF77.

[Brian Gaff (Sofa)]

Yes never actually tried to listen to it, but you could be right that modern crap on the mains might well be swamping the front end, they tend to use a ferrite rod and obviously orientation might be critical for that. What does it sound like is it a modulated signal or a frequency shift keyed thing. Brian

[Brian Gaff (Sofa)]

But one supposes it should still have a capability to keep local time, surely? Brian

[Harry Bloomfield, Esq.]

Brian Gaff (Sofa) explained on 18/08/2020 :

It is carrier on/off keyed once per second, with a fast on/off at the epoch. Length of on versus transmits time and date data, at one bit per second. The 'fast' on/off is called the croak and transmits the fast data burst - all data sent within the epoch second.

[T i m]

Crafty. ;-)

I can imagine, and could be the case between here and there at the time it needed restarting. Doesn't explain why it stopped completely though (unless it did just happen to be a bit of battery clip corrosion).

;-)

Interesting. This has 'MSF' on a little sticker on the mech so I'm pretty confident that's what this one is.

If their TX is like ours and supposed to be good for 1000km then it should be good either way (although I believe they say 2000km for theirs).

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

Yes, that was what was strange as I've only seen it going weird (when the battery is going flat) or right.

This was stopped, or was for the time I watched it so I (now) suspect a battery spring connector issue, as it was slightly corroded.

The battery, a Duracell AA was good till 2023 and was spotless and good and is now back in there working again.

So. taking the battery out and putting it back may have 'wiped' the connections but then it couldn't hear the MSF signal so just sat there doing it's 'I'm waiting' thing (running really slow).

With other such clocks here I've sometimes had to initially put them near a window to get them started and then they have been fine in their desired place after that (lot of computer / network noise about)?

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

Now registered my email OOI. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[Pamela]

I've also had that with Lidl digital clocks and weather stations.

[Pamela]

Blimey! You can even hear radio stations playing.

And I thought analogue rado was dead.