OT: First we drown them, now we burn them alive?

Perhaps because over an extended period the culprits have demonstrated no ability to self moderate or adjust their behaviour in the face of complaint. Hence they are now universally ignored or killfiled by many.

You however have demonstrated an ability to enter into rational debate in the past, a hence the appeal to "give it a rest"?

Speaking personally, not enough to become an activist. Personally I enjoy eating a meat based diet and have no desire at all to consider veganism which I consider to be right up there with self flagellation.

Do I think that as a planet we could do with eating less meat and dairy, yup probably, but none at all? No.

If its right for you, then I respect that choice. Same would apply if you took up Morris dancing. However I would prefer not to have wade though frequent posts on that either, unless dealing with the practical aspects of setting the pole plumb, or find a good source of strong ribbon!

Just to highlight that this is a topic I have thought about it might be worth mentioning that inI my mid teens I went on a guided tour of a slaughterhouse. There was a bloodthirsty element to our group at school, spare time, and a field trip in the offing - so that is what they chose. I actually found the experience reassuring; seeing that they were taking care to not distress animals and to treat them with respect - at least til the point they were stunned, and then a man with a big knife could slit their throats.

Do you suppose any group like being preached at?

Perhaps you need conduct a quick poll to see if there are any receptive to making such a lifestyle adjustment?

Then having established their is an audience for the topic, sell the benefits, and explain how to meet the challenges of finding food that you can enjoy, eating out, getting the right nutrition etc, rather than attempting to preach at your audience.

Well there is the thing, one can address cruelty issues, and still eat meat IMHO.

Three things come to mind:

2) The event was 'natural' (assuming the fires weren't down to arson) and so nothing that might not have happened before man came along.

It might also help if he consulted some who have more experience of promoting veganism. People who'll advise eg

"Perhaps you?ve fallen into the ?preachy vegan? stereotype a time or two. You probably don?t need to be told this, but people don?t tend to react well to accusatory arguments ? and even more importantly, they don?t usually work. People get defensive. They don?t like feeling as though their whole lifestyle is suddenly unhealthy and immoral."

and

"Understand that if you have certain beliefs, so do others. If you believe your beliefs to be correct, others have that same right. So be patient with those who scorn vegan lifestyles. Try and offer explanations but stop short of futile arguments."

Ok.

Ok.

No one suggested you should, however, you can be proactive yourself without being an activist as such? I'm not an activist, I'm just an advocate.

Bizarre, I always considered you a reasonable and rational guy.

Ok.

So, assuming you accept that our current method of dealing with animals (livestock) is less than ideal (from their POV and not particularly just the death) then you are ok with some levels of pain and suffering.

Playing devils advocate, 'my choice' *doesn't* involve the pain and suffering caused to any animals so 'of course' it should be pretty easy to respect?

The issue comes when you see someone knowingly causing animals pain and suffering, that's not to easy to accept / respect?

(See above, but what if I took up dog fighting or badger baiting and you were my friend ... and you cared for animals ... ?)

;-)

Ok.

Ok. If only that was the case these days, everywhere and all the time (but still unnecessary from my POV).

Cause and effect mate. We are having a reasonable discussion aren't we and we aren't in agreement. If you cast your mind back, my first post was just a hypothetical question, the restaurant video with the 'could you kill your own'. Now, what might be happening here (not with you necessarily / particularly) is it takes people outside their comfort zones and makes them question themselves and become defensive?

Once they are, we lose the option for 'reasonable discussion'.

I could.

See above and *very* tongue in cheek: ;-)

How, OOI ... and do you care about the ethics, resources and pollution?

Cheers, T i m

And BBQ meats, or 'smoked' meats and fish (not sure about cheese), yes.

Cheers, T i m

The same is true if you eat just vegetables:

Best drink more cows' milk:

If vegans don't die from cancer then it's more likely to be a stroke than their healthy meat eating folk.

Agreed, however, if it even only makes one or two people think, or discuss, that's a result. In fact that was my entire goal from the outset with the restaurant scene Youtube clip (that you have probably never seen because you are a pussaaaayy, so how could you *ever* get the point).

Of course, do you think I ever imagined it would be otherwise?

Don't you think I've been through those exact feelings? The difference with me is I was able to look at it all rationally and the conclusion came by itself.

'Beliefs'? WTF are you talking about now. Millions of animas are being murdered *every day* (200M) and you think the ethics, the pain, the suffering, the resources or pollution caused because of all that are 'a belief'?

See above.

What here, really?

If this n/g wasn't made up of mostly older men who have spent their entire lives under a form of indoctrination, that 'meat is good' (now ok in limited quantities) and 'milk is good' and 'eggs ere good/bad/good' but it seems, without any *actual* consideration to the actual morality of it all, do you really think they are going to be guided with a velvet glove into even thinking about it, let alone discussing it or changing?

Why does it take most people (men especially) to actually get something nasty before they make any lifestyle adjustments that might reduce the risk / avoid it?

In contrast, daughter went to her local cafe the other day and had whatever vegan stuff they did (and are now doing more of, since she requested it, like the oat milk (that is now being requested by many)

it was quiet and one of the regular waitresses got talking to her, admitted she didn't know much about what goes on behind the scenes in our meat / eggs / dairy industries and asked daughter if she would send her some video links (and this is just on Youtube remember, not some underground site or the dark web).

A few days later this woman messaged her back and was very upset, wasn't sure if she could even carry on her job in the cafe, after seeing what she had.

Now *that* is how compassionate, empathetic, supposedly 'animal loving / caring' people react to seeing such horrors, just as they do when the see footage of death camps, slavery and other atrocities played out against innocent animals (that includes us).

So if you watch an animal having it's throat cut and know there is no good /(overall) reason why that should happen, for the vast majority of the world today, you *should* be affected, you shouldn't want it to happen.

They have been brainwashed to believe that is not ok to hit a dog, even for fun, but it's ok to kill a lamb, just because you have been conditioned to consider it acceptable, like how it tastes, that cavemen did it or other animals do it.

Animal cruelty isn't just 'a thing', it's one of the biggest things that is (often secretly) going on in the world today and in the most part, is completely unnecessary.

Cheers, T i m

"But people on vegan and vegetarian diets also need to take particular care to consume enough of some specific nutrients.

For example, people who eat meat, dairy and fish usually have enough vitamin B12, needed for healthy blood and nervous systems.

However, vegans can become deficient, though B12 is also present in foods such as fortified breakfast cereals and yeast extract spreads.

Iron is also less easily absorbed from plant-based foods, so those who choose not to eat meat need to ensure they include foods such as wholemeal bread and flour, dried fruits and pulses.

And there was a call last month for vegans to be aware of the need to ensure they were consuming enough of another nutrient, called choline, important for brain health."

And then there's this:

"People who eat vegan or plant-based diets should ensure they are getting enough of a key, but little-known, brain nutrient, say experts.

Choline, which helps transfer signals between nerve cells, is highest in dairy foods and meat.

Nutritionist Emma Derbyshire told a BMJ journal that people not eating those foods may not get sufficient choline.

But the British Dietetic Association said, with planning, it was possible to obtain enough from a vegan diet.

Choline is also linked to liver function.

Eggs, milk and beef are prime sources. But it is also present in foods including:

Roasted soya nuts Cruciferous vegetables like broccoli and Brussels sprouts Baked beans Mushrooms Quinoa Peanuts

No need to exclude animal products 'completely'

Dr Derbyshire, an independent nutrition and biomedical science consultant, wrote in BMJ Nutrition, Prevention and Health that the UK was falling behind other countries by not recommending or monitoring dietary levels of the nutrient.

The US does have "adequate intake" levels of 425mg per day for women and

She suggested there had been research suggesting pregnant and breastfeeding women in particular had to ensure they had enough choline in their diets, because of suggested benefits for foetal brain development.

Dr Derbyshire said: "I'm looking in the first instance to raise awareness. But I also think if people are eating a plant-based diet, particularly if they are women of childbearing age, they should look at supplements."

Bahee Van de Bor, a spokeswoman for the British Dietetic Association, said: "You absolutely can meet the requirements with a vegan or plant-based diet.

"But you have to have a plan. Foods can be vegan but not provide the necessary nutrients."

She said that, just like iron, B12, omega-3 and calcium, people on plant-based diets needed to ensure they were getting enough choline in their diets.

"And if you don't like those foods, you might need to consider supplementation."

She said the suggestion that pregnant and breastfeeding women might need higher levels was "interesting", but more research into that area was needed.

A spokesman for the British Nutrition Foundation added: "It's likely that a healthy and varied vegetarian or vegan diet would provide some dietary choline.

"It's also important to make sure plant-based diets are well balanced to ensure enough of nutrients like iron, zinc calcium and vitamin B12 are consumed.

"Having said this we know that there can be many health benefits of following a more plant-based diet, although this doesn't necessarily mean that animal products have to be excluded completely."