OT: Before you buy that new EV.....

There are also hints from the UK car repair business of a reluctance to touch accident-damaged EVs in case the battery has been damaged.

Hybrid vehicle 3474.5 fires per 100,000 vehicle sales (16,051 fires). ICE cars 1520.9 fires per 100,000 sales (199,533 fires). BEVs 25.1 fires per 100,000 vehicle sales (52 fires).

Unfortunately, these statistics are not broken out, into home-location incidents.

One company recorded location for the BEV incidents, and gives this:

So that's maybe 3 fires where the car is "minding its own business" per 100,000. But there's no further breakout, as to whether the car is under a battery recall.

Cars that had recalls against them, would be ones where you would follow the instructions and park them away from the residence, until a new pack was fitted. (During a pack recall, there aren't enough packs to do the job "on demand".)

Apparently, one model year of Porsche Taycan has an issue with the seal between the liquid cooling system and the battery cells. And that highlights, that defects in design are continuous, rather than a declining "learn while you earn" sort of thing. The introduced of a new sealant... which promptly leaked. Which speaks well of verification testing. But based on recalls of all vehicles, this isn't actually a surprise. And that doesn't start fires -- it's not the same as puncturing a battery cell.

It's possible one brand of BEV, even had trouble with a wheel falling off :-)

And that could happen to your horse and buggy. But they likely did not keep detailed statistics back then. At least your horse wouldn't catch fire.

Now we'd have to look at the odds of your house catching fire, its own self. Lightning strikes are an effective method. We had maybe two so far this year. But numerically more houses, crushed by tornado.

Paul

Yes. I suspect that many crash damaged EVs will routinely be written off, and bought up cheap by the very few people who do have the skills to remove and replace the battery.

I have seen this stuff before. Is the argument not that unrestrained global warming would cause more deaths than electric vehicles? You could argue that people die of gas explosions and asphyxiation each year, but if you shut down the gas supply in the interests of safety far more people would die of hypothermia and malnutrition.

"But fires which wrote off the entire car and any neighbouring ones and set fire to houses or sank ships were 100% EV"

I am sure your logic would have appealed to Hiroshima inhabitants if they had been told the USA would only ever drop *one* bomb on them.

I thought the battery represented half the value of the vehicle. On that basis it would be difficult to justify the purchase of a replacement battery for any vehicle, let alone a damaged one. Unless, that is, the battery can be sourced at a far lower cost as a direct import from China?

First of all, you often don't need to replace the whole battery. If it's been in a crash the pyro fuse may have blown. Open battery, check cells, replace pyro (they can be refurbished), job done:

Finally, if it's very bad (eg soaked through by a flood) you can replace the whole battery pack. Used packs are also readily available from salvage merchants - out of cars which have been written off by an accident which hasn't affected the battery:

These skills are different from dealing with a typical combustion engine, but they aren't innately harder. It's just that some 'old boy' garages aren't interested in learning new skills. One garage I used to go to won't touch any hybrid or electric - even to change a wheel. That kind of dinosaur will likely die out over time.

Theo

Over the years, from shop to shop, what do you hear.

"I hate electrical problems"

And the staff get to choose whether they work on vehicles. They are not "condemned" to do whatever management makes them do. Each job is in effect, a contract job of sorts.

Part of the problem, is how they've been taught. They use needles and pierce the insulation, to debug electrical problems. The cars, the service manual, comes with a series of foldout schematics for overall connectivity.

But these are not electronic hobbyists at heart. For example, if all the lights on your dash flash in unison, I can guarantee you it'll be three or four visits to the shop, before it is really fixed. And a lot of wasted effort and materials along the way.

And having an interest in electronics, is a "thing" you pick up along the way. Immersion (going back to school) does not guarantee a useful individual comes out the school door. Many of the engineers I graduated with, were not "self-motivated", and I would expect some of them to burn down the lab on occasion. One gentleman we graduated with, he was moving to management immediately (thanks to his father), and he would never be diagnosing anything except company financials. He was smart enough to do the work (one of the better students), but he would tell you the day he stepped into the school door, he had no plan to ever touch a soldering iron.

So when a shop tells you they "don't repair X", what it really means is the shop manager polled the staff and found no one willing to do the work. And finding a person who really had the skills for it, forget it. What you're talking about, is a cross-disciplinary individual.

One of the companies here, a team was sent from Japan, to teach them about the cars, teach them diagnostic tricks, how to do certain procedures and so on. They used in-shop training, to improve the skill level of the staff. That way, you could trust the staff to change a cam shaft. Because Mr.Miyagi gave them a demo. That shows you the effort you have to put into it, to improve shop skills and confidence. I'm sure the guys could do the work, but generally, only one guy in an average shop is "the engine guy", willing to bet a lot of hours labour and taking a hit on takehome pay if he ran over on time.

And that's perhaps what it'll take, to make the staff comfortable with newer cars.

The guys have a few other tricks besides needles and an ohmmeter. They have the diagnostic computer. But the diagnostic computer is not a mind reader, and while it can show you parameters that are out of spec, you still have to root cause it. If a car has two active faults at the same time, you still have to do the work. And that might be needles and ohm meter again. Personally, I wouldn't want to work on an 800VDC circuit with needles, but I guess that's just me :-)

Paul

Meanwhile blacksmiths and veterinarians were no good with those newfangled automobiles. With a horse you knew how it worked, those engine things won't feed themselves or even find their own way home.

Likely it's because Charlie and Stuart underneath the arches have enough work coming in that they don't need to bother learning new things. But sooner or later that work will dry up. Maybe they'll retire before they need to, maybe they'll take up window cleaning or install double glazing instead.

Actually a lot of stuff is the same (suspension, brakes, tyres, bodywork) so maybe they'll get by with doing the non-drivetrain parts.

Main dealers seem much more on the ball, and I think it's a common route that younger techs learn their skills working for a main dealer, and then 'graduate' to working for themselves. Eventually those skills will trickle down to the independents.

Theo

I think main dealers are still woefully behind on developing the required new skills. Things will improve I’m sure but it’s taking time.

Tim

Perhaps not if they use oil fired boiler for heating. If you do get a leak you can likely see it and it is not easy to set alight.

I would think that an induction hob is much safer that a gas one.

Unless it is wired up with inadequate cable when some really need a dedicated 32 amp circuit (or even two circuits).

My 'old school' mechanic says he can service all the 'traditional' parts of an EV but not the drivetrain.

Having used all the different hobs over the years - we have induction, and like it. It doesn't pong the way gas does, is faster, and after a spill a clean means a wipe with a damp cloth. Not a full dismantling of a dozen pieces.

The only downside is you can't use a wok. I have a s/s sauté pan which is nearly as good.

Andy

They may be a bit fragile. I stayed in a holiday cottage where the hob was badly scraped and disooloured, believed to be a result of excess force used during cleaning.

Yes, you need to take care cleaning. Easy to put gouges in the surface. You need to clean after every use. But all hobs we have had cleaning issues.

Dave

While far more efficient than gas, they would still be more expensive to use. About double - although perhaps not that significant in the scheme of things.

While far more efficient than gas, they would still be more expensive to use. About double - although perhaps not that significant in the scheme of things.

What is the efficiency of an open gas flame heating a pan? Gas is certainly cheaper per kWhr but the transfer process is very inefficient (or at least, hugely variable).

Tim