OT Ambulance drone

[harry]

[Brian Gaff]

Why? Brian

[Nightjar]

AEDs are an excellent idea but an awful lot of public places already have one mounted on a wall somewhere. If you dial 999 and they decide you need one, you will be directed to the closest. As, in the UK at least, drones have to be within 500m of the operator, the extra complication of a drone seems pointless.

[Syd Rumpo]

Not so sure, genuinely. If the ambulance is only a few minutes away, why stop CPR while the AED takes measurements? This is valuable time when blood could be circulating, albeit at a much reduced rate.

Cheers

[Adam Aglionby]

[harry]

I can think of a few practical difficulties myself. eg Who is actually flying the thing and how do they know where to go? Must they keep it in sight? What happens if it loses it's control/video signal[behind a building say]?

Sounds like someone's got a toy and trying to justify/find a use for it.

[Nightjar]

The target is that first response should reach the victim within eight minutes. A transport ambulance should arrive within 19 minutes. Not all calls achieve those targets.

Part of the logic is that not everybody can do CPR, but anybody can follow the instructions from an AED.

[Chris French]

Indeed, our village is 20 mins drive from the nearest ambulance station,

- even blue lighting it I doubt they would do it in less than 15. Ok, the ambulance might already be out somewhere, but that doesn't mean it will be nearer.

Yes, and the effectiveness of CPR is limited - it's not like the TV :-) And even people who can do CPR, lots of them are probably like me and somewhat rusty

[soup]

On 10/11/2015 10:14, Nightjar but anybody can follow the instructions from an AED.

Yup your significant other/parent is lying there not breathing and covered in their own vomit. Of course anyone (hah) will be calm enough to use a piece of medical equipment.

(IMHO) You cannot ask an acquaintance of the injured party to do ANYTHING beyond the "keep pressure on here"/ "go direct the Ambulance to here" sort of help. Yes some will 'keep their heads' and do anything you say but most will just be a 'gibbering mess".

ANECDOTE :- I was the first aider at work when a guest had a heart attack and I had to perform CPR on him, I was flapping big style (brought him back a couple of times and he was still alive when he was put in the Ambulance) if it had been someone I knew, I doubt I could have followed instructions on how to use fairly technical equipment.

[Nightjar]

AEDs are kept in public places - garden centres, shopping arcades and even the middle of a high street, for example. There is a fairly good chance that there will be at least one person around with the presence of mind to grab it and anybody who thinks of that will be able to follow the step by step instructions given verbally by the machine.

[soup]

On 10/11/2015 18:16, Nightjar > On 10/11/2015 10:14, Nightjar >> but anybody can follow the instructions from an AED.

"at least one person" ? "anybody"

[Syd Rumpo]

De-fibrillation isn't like TV either - only a quarter of arrests are AED 'shockable' arrhythmias, so three out of four times you'd be wasting valuable blood-pumping time. As you know, even with a second person setting up the AED, there is a considerable measurement time during which the patient can't be touched.

I think it's a genuine problem, and I can't find clear-cut statistics.

Cheers

[Bill Wright]

Speaking from direct experience, in such a crisis it's surprising how well a person can perform.

Bill

[soup]

Change that "a person" "to some people", the thing I was disputing was this "ANYbody"

[Chris French]

TBH, life to short to worry about everything, I'll trust that some one somewhere has seen that there is a benefit.

The public AED in our village has a keypad lock on it, you can only access it if you phone 999 and the emergency operator asks you to use it and gives you the code

[Syd Rumpo]

I'm confident I can do proper CPR, and have been trained in AED use as well. If, as has been suggested, an AED is mostly of use where proper CPR isn't available, and if an ambulance is only minutes away, then my judgement may well be to continue CPR to keep the brain alive while the experts come.

However, if there's an AED available there will be pressure to use this perceived panacea and possible opprobrium if I don't. It seems the only way to avoid problems for me is to use the AED, even if it would not be the best interests of the patient.

Cheers

[F Murtz]

Don't these things send info on body functions back to base even if shock bit not required that can assist informing person at site what to do?

[Syd Rumpo]

If we're talking about existing publicly available AEDs, no. They announce something like, "No shock required, continue CPR".

Cheers

[NY]

Which covers you: you already know that a shock will not help and may even be contra-indicated, but to cover yourself you can go through the motions of using the AED and drawing a witness's attention to the message as explanation of why you are only doing CPR.

People like you are invaluable. I survived a heart attack and lengthy cardiac arrest only because my wife (who was my girlfriend at the time) had done a first aid course when she was in her teens and could remember enough to keep me alive (with guidance from the 999 operator as regards rhythm and placement of her hands) until the ambulance eventually arrived. Even the ambulance crew didn't manage to get my heart beating: they worked on me alternately for over an hour, administering all the adrenaline they had, and only did a "scoop and run" trip to A&E as a last resort when a second ambulance with replacement adrenaline didn't arrive. Fortunately A&E got my heart beating of its own accord and I was rushed to a larger hospital for specialised intensive care to cool my body temperature to help my organs survive the trauma of low oxygen supply.

And I survived - there were a few panics along the way when the doctors thought I was suffering kidney failure until they discovered that the urine output tube had got kinked (!), and they were not optimistic about whether I'd suffered brain damage. My wife said she went home one night expecting the worst and came in the following morning to see me give her a big grin of recognition. Mind you, I can't have been quite myself because the first words I mouthed to her (I couldn't talk because of a tracheostomy) were "marry me" ;-) It was scary to wake up in hospital knowing that there were recent memories (eg where we'd been for a holiday the previous month) that were completely gone, but subtle hints suddenly made my memories return and I remembered everything.

[Nightjar]

Two different actions:

Get AED - at least one person

Use AED - anybody

If you don't believe that, you ought to see a demonstration of one. They really are designed to be used by anybody, even by somebody who shouldn't really be a first aider if they go into a flap when giving CPR.