O/T 1200 or 1400 spin washing machine?

[Bruce]

I would like to see comprehensive evidence to support your claim that Miele costs twice as much as Bosch. There are plenty of Bosch items priced very similarly to comparable Miele items.

There seems to be a kind of inverted snobbery at work here. That's often to be found when people think they "cannot afford" good quality, and buy cheap junk instead. They then spend a lot of time claiming that the cheap junk they bought is just as good as a high quality item that, over its whole life, taking into account spares, repairs and frequency of renewal, would actually have cost them *far less*.

[stuart noble]

We went from the cheapest Servis to a Miele recently, mainly because of the 10 year guarantee. I doubt it will save us money really, but there are other considerations e.g. how little washing powder it requires. Using half the recommended dose on the packet, we were getting "excess detergent" messages, and needed to reduce it further. Even at this level, the machine is full of suds, so I can only imagine it disperses the stuff more efficiently. And that stuff isn't cheap

[Bruce]

It will use less energy, less water, less detergent and possibly less fabric softener. In its 20 year life it may need attention once or twice. Meanwhile, those who bought cheaper will find their machines need more energy, more water, more detergent and more frequent attention. In the 20 year life of the Miele they are likely to need replacing once or twice.

Work out the total cost of the Miele and the cheap washer over the total 20 year period and the Miele will be substantially cheaper. Even if you discount the costs in the later years to bring them to today's value, the Miele will still be substantially cheaper.

Add to that the fact that it will be significantly quieter when new, and stay significantly quieter, than the noisy cheap machine that will get noisier and noisier.

In a flat, terraced or semi-detached house your Miele can be used at night because it is whisper quiet. To use a cheap washing machine at night, you need to live in a detached house, and just imagine how much more that would cost! ;-)

[stuart noble]

I hope you're right. I sacrificed 2 weeks in Greece for the bloody thing

[dennis]

Rubbish, I bet my samsung washer dryer works out much cheaper than a miele washer dryer.

The noisiest thing about mine is the water inlet.

You shouldn't really leave washer or dishwasher unattended as there are failure modes that can be dangerous.

[NT]

If you want to offer figures and sound arguments, great, but the pseudopsychology is a bit foolish.

The reality is that none of us have presented a full set of figures, making economic comparisons just rough guesses. And its likely each of us makes varying assumptions for those comparisons, and we value the other points differently, so 'one is better than the other' arguments are fairly tenuous.

NT

[Dave Liquorice]

Quite so. We looked at Miele but they simply didn't meet the required specification on wash capacity and spin speeds. Also we weren't impressed by the user interface and general build quality, probably the detergent draw (most brands were let down by the detergent draw). The much increased cost and possible benefit of the warranty didn't balance, to us, against the missing desired features.

[Dave Liquorice]

You've made the mistake of believing the doseage that the packet says. I don't think we have *ever* used what it says, it's far to much unless you are in a hard water area and have *really* dirty clothes, as in just come in from diging foundation trenches by hand in the pouring rain after changing the oil on the car and having used engine oil spurt out all over you.

Think about it the detergent maker isn't going to "under sell" how much you need a) it will reduce how much they sell b) runs the risk that a wash will be less than perfect and customer switching brand.

For our powder packet minimum recomended dose is 25ml/kg with minimal dirt & softwater. Our normal wash is probably 5kg so we should be using 125ml, we use 50 without any problems...

[dennis]

8<

Same here, I haven't put in the recommend dose for years in any machine I have used. They all work with half a dose or less. If the cloths are really bad a "prewash" on quick wash works far better than using more detergent.

[Bruce]

The only "build quality" that matters is that which you cannot see.

Cheaper makes will always dress up their products with features that might appear attractive but aren't necessary - it's how they sell them. Spin speeds are something of an urban myth. What matters is results - how dry the clothes are.

As with cars, cheap brands often sell well because of the "free" bells and whistles that come with them. But the basic product quality isn't there, and that matters more than anything.

Of course those who simply cannot afford a better quality product will always find a hundred reasons to diss the brand. ;-)

[dennis]

Hmmm! What's in a washer? ..

Main motor pump drum bearings a few valves a controller bits of bent metal plastic.

Which bits cost three times as much in a miele than in a Hotpoint?

[stuart noble]

And those who have spent big money will always try to justify it, to themselves, and others.

[Bruce]

Come on, Stuart, we're not talking about "big money" here. Big money is a £1,000,000+ house, a Bentley on the driveway and a yacht.

Here, we're talking about household appliances costing just a few hundred pounds. We're talking about people on average incomes deciding what would be the wisest way to spend their limited disposable income.

We're talking about spending a little more for quality that lasts 20 years rather than buying some cheap, fundamentally unreliable junk that won't last half that long, on the basis of it having some superficially attractive features that hide its poor quality components and cheap manufacture.

Personally, I live a frugal lifestyle through necessity. But being frugal doesn't mean being cheap. Quality items that last cost only slightly more to buy. Over their lifetimes, they cost an awful lot less to own than cheap, unreliable junk.

[dennis]

Three times the price is not slightly more.

[Dave Liquorice]

Well all I can say is that clothes come out after a 1600 spin an awful lot dryer than they did out of any of the older machines we have had.. Those would have had peak spin speeds of 1000 or 1200 rpm.

You haven't read what I wrote. The Meile's didn't meet capacity and spin requirments as laid down by the main machine operator (SWMBO'd). If the specs and build quality of the bits that mattered to the specifier had been close we might have sprung the extra cash but they were miles away.

[Dave Liquorice]

The last washing machine to be disposed of here was a 25 year old Zanusi. It had never had anything done to it, no I tell a lie we replaced the plastic filter unit, once. It was disposed of 'cause it had got very noisey on spin as the drum mountings had gone soggy and it would walk around the kitchen.

Previous to that was 15 year old Hotpoint washer/dryer.

[Andy Dingley]

For the same drum diameter.

As the cost to make a machine is more closely proportional to the "drying power" than the speed alone, you may find that your hyper- speed drier was achieved most simply and cheaply by also shrinking the drum a little. This puts up the rated speed in the adverts, but doesn't make it any better at drying.

There's also the most significant issue, that any recent machine is actually running at a variable speed, limited by vibration. Unless it's well enough constructed to permit this top speed to be maintained, it's unlikely to be running anywhere near that fast in practice. Put a tacho on it and surprise yourself (or if it's a Hotpoint, merely confirm your worst suspicions).

[js.b1]

Re build quality, if this is the new "designer streamlined" Miele without the orange button & simple dials then the drawer does feel a bit tacky. I had a chance to play with the older W613 and "designer" version (which tends to be =A350 less). Some parts that used to be metal are now plastic, the counterweights that used to be cast iron are concrete, the drum looks different.

Miele have tarted around with their vacuum cleaners too, but the old models did have a bit TOO clunky vacuum-end connectors. The latest S2210 (if that is the right code) is nicely lightweight, mainly through elimination of metal parts, the plastic appears identical. The downside is the superlight Miele put the tools on the hose, a dumb idea - but countered by the tiny case actually not holding the old

3.5L FJM bag but the larger 5.0L GN so economics are improved. The latest bags have 1 less per box (4 rather than 5 or 5 rather than 6) so the larger bag is distinctly beneficial.

I still say buy a machine with 5yr warranty, put the =A3400 saving over a 10yr warranty Miele in just about any fund - chances are you will not need to touch it until year 7 by which point it has a 50:50 chance of being about =A3300-800. At that point a) you will probably need to buy the Miele because everything will be scrap or b) devaluation will mean you will only be able to afford a manual tub & mangle for that money. Miele 5yr could be had for =A3449 May 2008, afterwards it hit =A3649 which as I recall is too close to the 10yr version (=A3829 last I looked).

If you buy a washer dryer, and have the space, buy 2 of them - sods law applies of course :-)

[Alan]

In message , Bruce wrote

But there is a price point where the "quality" is more than adequate and paying twice as much doesn't get you twice the quality.

I'm sure some people would spend hundreds on a Russ Andrews "Hi Fi" digital connection cable where the rest of us would spend a fiver at CPC on something that does the same job

[Alan]

In message , Bruce wrote

Miele W3985WPS

6 kg capacity honeycomb drum with LED lighting Only £1500!