NICEIC blatantly gold plates the regs.

[Ed Sirett]

Had a run-in today with (a NICEIC registered) sparky today.

He asked me what I wanted for the wiring for the heating and boiler.

So I said 1 FCU with 3A fuse supplied from a non-RCD protected supply location near the boiler. Actually load 1A. 1 3+E cable between the boiler and X where X was a suitable place for the thermostat.

He said can't do non-RCD supply for the boiler. I said Why? He said NICEIC inspector insists all supplies to wet areas + boiler + immersions in fact anything with 'water' must be RCD protected. I said this was going far beyond the regs, he said it "might be" but the NICEIC inspector will give him a bollocking if there's no RCD.

This is really unhelpful.

[Lobster]

I'll say. I'm currently completing a rewiring project - to be duly inspected - and have deliberately put the boiler on a non-RCD supply to the kitchen, along with the freezer. Am I going to be stuffed then? :-(

David

[Stephen Dawson]

I am an NICEIC registered electrician and think the other sparks is talking rubbish, unless the boiler is outside the main equipotential bonding zone, in in a bathroom and for no other reason.

[meow2222]

I'd tell him if he doesnt want to do there job there are others that will. Losing a job cos he made up rules may get him a bigger bollocking.

NT

[ARWadsworth]

You have my sympathies. On the practical side is it possible to get the sparky to use an RCD fused spur from a non RCD supply so that it can be swapped later?

Adam

[Lurch]

On Mon, 26 Mar 2007 18:36:37 +0000 (UTC), Ed Sirett mused:

Yep.

There's a company I used to do a lot of work for and they were\are NICEIC registered. They were basically incompetent, and overdid lots of things (like excessive bonding, but by doing so mixed equipotential zones etc...) but completely missed loads of others (like actually using the correctly sized cables for given overcurrent protection devices used etc...).

The NICEIC inspector never really picked up on anything, but seemed to just look at what had been done and just sort of compare it to what had been done on the previous inspection.

Basically, by doing something you're not meant to be doing it becomes accepted as the norm so someone notices when you stop doing it. I think this is what is happening in these 2 cases.

[Lurch]

On Mon, 26 Mar 2007 20:32:00 GMT, "ARWadsworth" mused:

Not recommended to use a spur for an immersion heater, although the bloke sounds an idiot anyway so he could do anything.

[Martin Crossley]

Lobster wrote: :: Ed Sirett wrote: ::: Had a run-in today with (a NICEIC registered) sparky today. ::: ::: He asked me what I wanted for the wiring for the heating and boiler. ::: ::: So I said 1 FCU with 3A fuse supplied from a non-RCD protected ::: supply location near the boiler. Actually load 1A. ::: 1 3+E cable between the boiler and X where X was a ::: suitable place for the thermostat. ::: ::: He said can't do non-RCD supply for the boiler. I said Why? ::: He said NICEIC inspector insists all supplies to wet areas + boiler ::: + immersions in fact anything with 'water' must be RCD protected. ::: I said this was going far beyond the regs, he said it "might be" ::: but the NICEIC inspector will give him a bollocking if there's no ::: RCD. ::: ::: This is really unhelpful. :: :: I'll say. I'm currently completing a rewiring project - to be duly :: inspected - and have deliberately put the boiler on a non-RCD supply :: to the kitchen, along with the freezer. Am I going to be stuffed :: then? :-( :: :: David

Any chance that it's a TT supply and he didn't explain himself coherently? With Ed being in London, I'd be surprised if it is, though. Martin.

[Andrew Gabriel]

My guess is he hasn't actually got a clue what he's doing, and at some stage in the past, an inspector told him off for not using an RCD where he should have.

At a previous employer, there had been a rule in place that electrical work had to be done by NICEIC companies. The quality of the electrical work was very poor. Then we insisted electricians had to bring their C&G certificates on first visit to premises, but we couldn't find any local NICEIC companies who could supply any qualified electricians. Then the NICEIC requirement was dropped, and we started using a few local independant qualified electrians, who did a really excellent job. This was a good while ago now.

[David Hansen]

On Mon, 26 Mar 2007 18:36:37 +0000 (UTC) someone who may be Ed Sirett wrote this:-

Definitely gold plating. I once came across a shower pump that had been fitted with a local RCD, no doubt on the basis that "water and electricity don't mix."

[ARWadsworth]

It is not an immersion heater it is a boiler with a 3amp fused spur.

Did you have a blond moment or a bottle of plonk :)

Adam

[ARWadsworth]

I am sure I have read in the instructions that came with one shower pump that I wired up that it must be on an RCD supply. I actually only did so because the house had a 30mA RCD main switch.

Adam

[ARWadsworth]

That sound like a company I worked for. They got a bollocking from the inspector for excessive bonding. The inspector's argument was that the company was charging the customer for work that was not needed. In particular was the main equipotential bonding to the water on new builds that were plumbed in all plastic. The company insisted on a short piece of copper stub from the stoptap that they could bond to.

Adam

[Ed Sirett]

That'll depend on whether you are registered with NICEIC and have the same inspector who gold plates the regs.

[Ed Sirett]

Definitely TN-S

[Ed Sirett]

No it will be going in a dry cupboard on the landing, outside of any special zone and inside the equipotential zone.

[Ed Sirett]

We are both contractors to the owner. It's not the sparky who is gold plating the regs but his inspector.

[Ed Sirett]

That's a good idea. I'll se if I can get him to put it with the fridge freezer supply (OK for non-RCD if no ice maker!). It can be swapped out later. Alas the Rcd fcu will be £20 so that might be a stumbling point.

[Lurch]

On Tue, 27 Mar 2007 16:47:29 GMT, "ARWadsworth" mused:

Erm, tiredness!

My mind was immediately drawn to a job I did a while ago with a megaflow and system boiler which were right next to each other in a bathroom that was about to be split in two with the boiler ending up in a cupboard off the landing when the wall went up.

For some reason I got the immersion heater off that job added onto Eds spec in my mind, but it was good advice anyway so not a total loss!

[Ian_m]

I always thought that the definition of when to RCD something is when there is a posibility of someone touching a live conductor, thus triggering the RCD ie 13A plugs, leads, portable appliances. Thus fixed appliances (built in cookers, washing machines, immersion heaters, lighting circutis etc) do not need RCD as there is no chance of touching just the live conductor in "normal use". The fault of live to metal case is covered by earthing and the MCB(or fuse wire) tripping.

On saying that my boiler is on the kitchen RCD'ed ring main but immersuion connection (not used, but wired) is not.