Looking for a leak

Mar 09, 2019 Last reply: 7 years ago 57 Replies

So far all the normal tricks don't seem to be doing it!



Short version:



There is a leak somewhere in my central heating system - its losing pressure regularly, and needs topping up with at least a couple of litres a day.



Longer version:



The pipework is of questionable vintage, but I am guessing 30+ years old. Almost exclusively copper apart from about 3m of speedfit for one particularly awkward pipe run. Largish S Plan+ system - unvented cylinder and about 21 rads (split into separate upstairs and downstairs zones).



The system was pretty good - only needing a small top up at most once or twice a year. However over the last year its got worse. It got to the point where it needed a top up every other week or so. So I carefully checked around any areas where there have been changes in recent times.



I found one radiator tail in the downstairs loo where I had needed to do a "live" pipework change and had used a cuprofit fitting that was knocking about in the plumbing kit. That had a very slight indication of a weep from around the base of the fitting. So I chopped it out and re-did it properly. After that, no improvement or the rate of loss seemed to get even worse! Even though there is definitely no evidence of a leak in that location now.



So I checked the PRV drain pipe on the system boiler. That's not letting by. Checked the drain point tap which is outside - again its dry.



Seems unlikely its the coil in the indirect cylinder since it is an unvented cylinder, and the water pressure inside it is higher than that of the CH primary - so if that leaked the CH would fill up!



So I had a careful look about. No indications of staining on the ceilings, and it seems unlily one could lose that much water by evaporation from the leak point. so I thought ground floor would be more likely - there is loads of space in the under floor void where you could lose water without it showing up anywhere.



However over the last few weeks I managed to get eyes on pretty much all the GF pipework (sometimes indirectly by bribing second born to climb through a hole in the floor and romp about in void and look for any signs of leaks or damp, or corroded looking pipes etc). Got some more boards up today and looked at the last two rad pipe runs. Again all ok.



Any bright ideas?



I cut strips of kitchen paper and tie it around every possible leaking joint.

I live in a hard water area so even if the water evaporates I get calcium deposits after a few weeks or months, these can be felt by the paper going slightly hard and discoloured.

Two litres sounds a lot. How do you measure it?

Fluorescein dye and a UV flashlight?

Thomas Prufer

Handy tip, ta.

I can't directly - I can only estimate by how long I turn the filling loop on to restore the pressure, and compare that time with filling a container at the kitchen tap. We have high water pressure (~6 bar), so it can shift a fair amount in a few seconds.

Work out where's the hardest bit to get to. It's there.

NT

Do you have a means of isolating individual zones - in order to narrow down the problem area? I'd be surprised if you didn't have strategically located quarter turn valves for the purpose.

all of which have seized beyond all hope.

NT

Your optimism is boundless :)

If they were gate valves, or even simple service valves, I'd agree - but that's not what I meant. Full flow quarter turn lever valves don't seize.

I had a cracked heat exchanger. Because it was a condensing boiler, it happily drained all the leaked water down the condensate pipe.

Could you see whether the boiler appears to be producing condensate even when it's powered off?

Alternatively, can you isolate the boiler and see whether its pressure decreases over time?

Alas, I did not install the original system (although I did install the boiler, hot water tank, and did the zoning and controls).

I know I can easily add isolation for the flow side of each zone - just after the two port valves. However I am not convinced that I can do the return at a place that would allow segments to be isolated completely from each other.

I normally use full bore lever operated or butterfly valves for that kind of thing. Never had one of those fail yet.

Gate valves on the other hand, its rare to find one that works at all IME!

Yup I did consider that, and was wondering how to test it without taking the cover off the combustion chamber...

Yup, that would probably do it actually. If I take the front cover off then I can see the internal mechanical pressure gauge (normally the one you can see from outside is electronic and on the boiler's LCD).

What type, and where would be a good place to get it (the dye that is, I have the torch!)?

Leak on heat exchanger of boiler itself. They can leak only when it's firing/hot. Water evaporates so not necessarily any drips.

Tie plastic bags over PRV vents, it only leaks as water heats up. And when it's topped up.

Does it lose water when not running? (Clue to above)

I installed full bore isolating lever valves for each section, in part because I installed the system in stages over a year. By about 2 years later, they were all seized on. These valves only work if exercised regularly. The two that came with the boiler's system kit did seem to last significantly longer, so it could be a quality issue.

Also is there any way to isolate a zone?

I rremember in a friends house about ten years ago, I walked into an upstairs room and said, it smells like fresh plumbing in here. IE I cannot describe it, but there is a smell of dampness and something like a coppery tinge to it. There was a tiny pinhole in a pipe to the radiator there. It semmed to be almost like steam. Weird, as I do not see how one can get a pin hole in a pipe. Still that sort of problem has always put me off of central heating since. Brian

I changed a pump on a 30-40 year old system and was shocked to discover that one of the ball valves to isolate the pump still worked. Of course the other one didn't.

NT

I once owned a flat (over one of my launderettes) where pin holes kept appearing in 1/2" (not 15 mm) cold water pipes. Happened several times so eventually we changed the pipes. Installed mid 1960's I suspect but could have been as late as mid 1970's. It was a hard water area.

Andrew

I've had more problems from ball valves leaking at te gland than from any other type.

Eventually they scale up again.

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