Lavatory woes

[Tony Wood]

Any experts in water flow around here?!?

Had been having problems with the flush on a lavatory so wanted to replace the flap valve, but of course no-one seemed to sell just the valve material so decided to replace the whole siphon system.

However, the toilet concerned seems to be of the double trap siphonic type (i.e. the rdeuced pressure in the cistern when the thing flushes is used to reduce pressure in an air chamber around the first ubend to help 'pull' the water from the bowl down - the readers digest complete DIY manual gives a good description of what is happening if anyone's interested!). So anyway, I took all the old one out and removed the "pressure reducing device" from the old siphon, only to find that it doesn't fit into the new one. On the advice of a local builder, he suggested trying without it in place and seeing if it would work (we're intending to replace the whole bathroom later in the year, so that'd only be a temporary measure!), but unfortunately it doesn't.

Does anyone have any suggestions as to what I could do? Can you get 'pressure reducing devices' that fit current siphons anywhere? Please don't tell me I need a complete new toilet just for the sake of the siphon not working!! :-(((

Cheers,

Tony.

[Bob Minchin]

I've been getting poor flush performance from my washdown flush toilet and had always been impressed with the performance of syphonic pans when i'd used them in other houses. Last year I went on a search to find one that might retrofit into our bathroom. I was told that they were no longer made - possibly due to not meeting some regulation or other. I suspect you will find it very difficult to get spares therefore and might have to resort to new compliant one.

I'm wondering what to do with my poor flush. Maybe a cistern installed in the loft would give it enough momentum to flush away the 'floaters'!!!

Anyone got any tips for improving the flush? I have a simple washdown pan and a concealed cistern at a little above the height of a close coupled type cistern.

regards

Bob

[Capitol]

It's a very common problem. The British seem incapable of making a wash down toilet which works reliably, with a low level cistern. I've had 5 newly installed toilets over the years, which did not work. It seems to be a pot luck system, expensive ones didn't work, most cheap ones did! It may be worth while to increase the diameter of the down pipe if your tank is remote. A new syphon is not generally expensive, except in terms of time to fit and may ease the problem. Console yourself with the thought, that you are not in the USA, where a common dinner table confession conversation is "Toilets we have blocked!" Any US diy store has the biggest stock of toilet plungers that you have ever seen! The UK is not all bad when compared to this.

Regards Capitol

[John Flax]

Do you mean the diaphragm.i.e. looks like a square/oval of flexible plastic sitting on top of a grid? See illustrations in

or made a temporary replacement from a substantial polythene bag until I could go to the local hardware shop (not a shed). Ten years later the 'real thing' is waiting to be fitted.

[Set Square]

There not a lot you can do to improve the flush. Operating the handle rapidly with a pump action *sometimes* helps to discharge the contents of the cistern with a bit more force.

Otherwise, on a one-off basis, you can get rid of the "floaters" by pouring a bucket of water rapidly into the pan.

[Andy Hall]

I've noticed. It seems that most operate with a swirling motion (so to speak) followed by some kind of siphonic action. The waste exit from the pan seems to be underneath it and the pan effectively sits on top of the soil pipe.

.andy

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[N. Thornton]

For the flush syphon, Vitalite margarine tub, big round one, the lid's about perfect. Trim it down and off ya go.

Whats the stiffness of your old flap valve? Just pick a sheet plastic to match it. Domestic refuse is as good a place as any to find suitable. Food trays, that sort of thing.

Regards, NT

[Paul Mc Cann]

snip

By no stretch of the imagination would I claim to be an expert on this but I did once improve the performance of the flush by adjusting the inlet pipe. ISTR it was either too long or pushed in too far.

Paul Mc Cann

[IMM]

'floaters'!!!

If that is feasible then do that. Yu will use much less water the higher the cistern.

It's called a siphonic toilet.

[IMM]

They used too much water.

[Bob Eager]

Don't underestimate the frictional effects of scale. If the bowl (and under the rim) is scaled up, the flush will suffer.

[Andy Hall]

Mmm. I know. I have two of them, not the U.S. style though.

.andy

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[Capitol]

Too true! Regards Capitol

[R W]

Out of morbid interest I lifted the lid on two US toilet cisterns when I was last there to see how they work.

The first one contained water but no siphon. The handle was linked to a chain which lifted a plug out of a plughole at the bottom of the cistern. On the chain was a float device. The plug was fitted so that it couldn't come away from the vicinity of the hole. As all the water drained away there was nothing left to keep the plug floating and it dropped back into its hole. The pan was siphonic. The cistern filled using a float valve, not quite a ball c*ck but similar.

The second suprised me more. The inside of the cistern was completely dry. There was a big metal cylinder taking up almost all of the space inside the cistern. The flush operated a switch on the cylinder. When the toilet flushed there was an accompanying "release of compressed air" sound. The water came into the pan with quite some force, but there wasn't much of it. I assume the inside of this cylinder filled with water, but I couldn't figure out exactly what it was or how it worked.

[The Natural Philosopher]

That's the californiai model. Water saving. Blow the shit way with hot air. And just enough lubricant to grease the turds.

[Jerry Built]

Can't you just use a disc of polythene cut out of a fertilizer sack or similar? Buy a new syphon and just use the disc?

It won't.

You could try a plumbers merchant, taking the device (commonly called a "bomb") with you... you can also get a tail piece that a bomb will fit into that screws onto the bottom of your syphon - OK if it will all still fit in the cistern....

What sort of colour suite is it? It might be saleable when you come to get rid of it.

J.B.

[Jerry Built]

They are still obtainable, but (compared to washdown pans) rather expensive!

Is there enough water volume in the cistern? Can you increase it, e.g. by bending the float arm up?

Does the flush start properly, i.e. is the syphon working properly?

Is the pan level and the bowl being washed down properly?

Can the diameter of the pipe between the cistern and pan be increased at all?

Is there an elbow in the pipe rather than a bend?

J.B.

[Andy Hall]

These are common in California now. Basically the cylinder is a pressure vessel with a diaphragm and air trapped behind it - similar concept to an expansion vessel in a heating system here.

The cylinder is filled under mains pressure with a non return valve. When you operate the flush, it opens a valve to eject the water at speed into the pan. .andy

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[PoP]

I remember taking a dump in the company loo in California, and the loos there had water in the bowl nearly up to the seat level - in normal operation. It was a bit disconcerting sitting on the seat with water nearly up to your privates.

Which is all very well unless you've got a floater (I imagine).

This was about 10 years ago, and all the loos in that region seemed to operate on filling the bowl with maximum water. Glad we haven't got that deal over here.

PoP

Sending email to my published email address isn't guaranteed to reach me.

[Tony Wood]

Heh....if I could have found a suitable material, that's what I'd have done....I'll know to make sure I've got something like that on hand next time!

Yeah - thought of that. Thing is, the existing siphon was circular and all the new ones were all more rectangular.....hence deciding to attempt to replace the whole lot.

Anyway, there seems to be a resolution to this story now...see later....

Indeed - found that out the hard way...!

Nah - t'wouldn't have done; I tried it with it as far into the tailpiece as it would go (which was, incidentally, still quite a tight fit so I wasn't worried about leakage) and it was too big to sit in the appropriate place in the toilet basin.

It's a horrible 70's turquoise....yuk!!

Anyway, the resolution seems to have been try a better town than the one I live in where the 2 DIY sheds (Focus and Homebase) don't stock much useful. Happened to be in Bristol on Sunday morn and on spec tried the B+Q there - guess what...they sold the flap valve/diaphram/whatever you want to call it in the right size for the old siphon. So out came the new one, and in went the old one with the new valve (and also, incidentally, with a spring that was on the new siphon but not on the old one that pushes the thing back down again afres flush that I thought was a good idea!) and back together it all went. OK, so there's still a small issue in that I couldn't find a suitable rubber bung for the bomb to sit on to get a perfect seal, but I used the old (in quite bad shape) one - since we're going to replace the lot later in the year that'll do for now.

So the moral is, B+Q seem to sell some useful stuff!

Tony.