I'm not a happy bunny using ladders - probably because I know how dangerous they can be.
Would I be/feel safer if I bought a ladder stand off like this
heh. I dont like the big ones much either. Another approach to ladder safety is to use a harness. The if you come off the ladder, youre not going far. Screwfix sell them.
NT
Having had to work off ladders with fairly heavy machinery for many years, I can say with all honesty that the only time I was scared was when some idiotic council made us use these stand offs, the stabilisers are even worse.
The worst thing about the stand offs are that they make you too far away from the wall - they are 18 inches away at the top rung! - if you are a few rungs down from that you are over 2 ft away, so you have to stretch, this is when accidents happen. As far as the 'stabilisers' go - would you *feel* safe climbing a ladder resting in that contraption?
The best ladder stabiliser is soil - simply place the ladders on a flowerbed where possible and jump on the first rung to sink them in....failing this (if they are on hardstanding) sprag them off a wall, kerb or any other solid upright - I've even seen people knock a bolster chisel into gaps and put the foot of the ladder against it to prevent slipping - slipping is the only thing that can cause the ladder to fall, and they don't slip sideways. A good set of ladders should not wobble from side to side when extended and you are climbing up them...if they do give sideways movement at height, get rid of them and buy a rigid set, also don't have them too far away from the wall.
Well if you use them in totally the wrong situation then they aren't going to help are they?
A stand off is designed to lift the ladder away from the wall so that it will clear things like gutters, so that the ladder can extend up past the gutters. You are meant to be standing with the upper part of your body above the stabiliser. this makes working on gutters so much easier and safer than if the ladder stops on the wall below it, Esp. if the building has deep eaves. I consider them pretty much essential for using a ladder to maintain our gutters etc.
They can also be useful when working on windows. The stabiliser is placed below the window, with the ladder extending up in front of the window. You can work from the ladder with out the problems you sometimes have in placing the ladder securely. It is also easier to work on bits of the window that would be very close to the ladder - say when a ladder was resting on the wall above a window.
What exactly are your objections to them (I've never used one, I'm genuinely interested)-
Having had the experience of a ladder starting to move when I was up the top when it was resting on soil - and I had done my best to firm the feet of the ladder. - it's not something I would ever recommend. Even trying to firm the foot of the ladder in as you suggest you can never quite be sure how secure it is..
I've used a couple of bags of sand at the feet for the same sort of thing.
Worst situation IMO is a slope across the foot of the ladder. No matter how well I pack out the base to level it, I never feel entirely happy that something isn't going to move.
whole load of work at height (guttering, burglar alarm, complete house repaint) I'm still not comfortable.
However, ever since I got myself a stand-off - specifically this one:
The platform aspect to the one I've got really helps too - it easily swallows a paint tray which for me was a real boon. Indeed, just having somewhere to place tools (holds 10kg max) avoids what all-too-often feels like a juggling act. Furthermore, when you're positioned in front of it you can't see down below it which certainly helps my fear of heights!
Another poster mentioned that stand-offs position you too far from the wall - I couldn't disagree more. When working at the height of the stand-off the wall is well within reach and you're able to comfortably drill etc without dangerously leaning back - indeed you can stay hard up against the ladder and work completely centrally so you really couldn't feel (and be) safer. If further down the ladder you're too far from the wall you need to be shortening the ladder height - that safety rule applies whether you're using a standoff or not.
The advantages when it comes to clearing guttering speak for themselves, and it's handy to be able to not have your ladder positioning restricted due to soil/drain pipes etc as it can straddle around a 6-inch protusion from the wall.
In case you haven't worked it out, I can highly recommend stand-offs (or at least specifically the 'LadderMax' one I've got).
Mathew
But don't you have to go up the ladder to attach them?
Ditto. I use the Wickes one which easily clips on to a ladder. It doesn't have a shelf, but my drill easily sits in the metal framework of it. Make sure it includes the spring clip -- I've seen them on display with that missing.
The ones we had to use attatched to the top of the ladders and held them out from the wall about 14+ inches, not good when you are trying to drill holes in aformentioned wall with a Hilti TE72 with a 25mm diameter and 15 inch long drill bit! - I suppose they could be handy for working on gutters in the scenario you describe above, but I've always just placed mine onto the facsia board.
I just don't feel safe with them - the only ones that were OK were simple 'T' plates...a sort of flat aluminium plate about 2 ft long and a foot wide, and coming up from the centre was another aluminium plate about 3 inches high, like an upturned letter T, on the bottom was thick rubber with grips on it.
Provided both feet go in the same depth, it can't slip backwards - your weight, and that of the ladder, is bearing down on the feet, it would have to uproot itself out of the soil/clay...the only time it can move is if one foot hits a rock and the other hits soft soil, hence my recomendation to jump on the bas***d as hard as you can before climbing.
I've got to agree, having had my ladders fully extended on a garage apex while drilling out the peak of a high gable more than enough times than I care to remember!
I also remember doing Blackpool Royal hospital many moons ago, with 40ft ladders (the ones with ropes to extend them) and not being high enough, we placed them on top of a van on a plank...needless to say, I took the van keys with me up the ladder.
Not normally. When working below roof height, go upstairs first, attach rope to X shaped 2 pieces of meaty wood, and pass rope out window. The large X stops this thing coming out the window if it should ever be used in anger.
When working at roof height, tie 1 or 2 toilet rolls to end of rope and throw it over the roof ridge (bogroll = soft non-damaging weight). Walk the thrown end back round, make a noose there, and tie a long string to the noose. Now, thread rope thru noose and pull it tight so you've got the top noosed round the chimney stack. Just pull the string all the way down when you need to remove it.
Knotting a loop every 2' in this rope means you can move the harness attachment point as you go. This is good for ropes secured indoors, but no good for a chimney rope. Using 2 clip on ties from harness to rope means youre still attached even while you reattach.
Finally, even if you were to just attach it to whatever height youre at, it still means a much reduced fall, which is the difference between 'oh shit' and 'nooooooo'
A harness also enables working off a vertical ladder in those situations where access is really problematic. As well as stopping falls from an insecure work platform, you can also clip the harness to the ladder at waist height and lean back for comfortable working. If you dare :)
NT
how to have an accident in one easy paragraph.
NT
This is a very good point. Many of the DIY rated ladders (especially those with I section ali stiles) exhibit very poor latteral stability. Unless you are built like an anorexic whippet, you will always feel much safer on a decent BS EN 131 "trade" rated ladder.
I doubt you have used it or you wouldn't have made that particular point. Just like using ladders properly can be safe when used properly, of course its safe when used properly. Its really designed for sloping ground which it deals with extremely well. Not particularly good with uneven ground because of the limited range of adjustment of the legs. I find it cumbersome if the ladder requires moving frequently.
To answer the OPs original question, a good standoff, I particularly commend the "Screwfix superior" really adds to stability by moving the point of contact well outside the point of work. Don't understand your criticism, you must have had a rubbish standoff.
Jim A
Mathew (and also Chris who replied earlier): I've also got a LadderMax. On one window (above the porch, so very difficult to lean ladders over the porch) it proved fantastic: it made painting that window a complete doddle, and, as you've also remarked, I have never felt safer on a ladder!
However ... on other windows I have difficulty getting the Laddermax at the correct position on the wall, partly because -- and this is the point of my question -- I find it *extremely* heavy to manoeuvre the ladder with the LadderMax on the end. It only weighs a couple of kilos of course, but on the end of a ladder it gets awful heavy.
Any tips? Or do I just need to be a lot bigger and heavier?
John
{ snip a lot of advice about Heath Robinson fall arrest }
People planning to make home-made fall-arrest/work-positioning systems need to be really careful that they understand the very high forces which can be involved in arresting a fall, and also the implications of being caught dangling and injured in a harness with no rescue method. (Basically that you'll be dead after a few minutes of dangling)
If a lashed-up 'safety harness' encourages you to do wild things at the top of a ladder, it's made your life more dangerous, not less.
Will
Well he did tie 1 or 2 toilet rolls to the end of the rope. If I fell, I'd need 'em...
a) 10mm nylon rope b) if you do fall, you've got the choice between falling to the ground and falling 2-3 feet. I prefer the small fall.
the ladder is the means of rescue.
why will you be dead after a few minutes after falling 2 or 3 feet?? Do you think someone would be better off falling all the way to the ground?
I think thats true of any safety system. The idea is to realise the dangers of ladders and create a second line of defence against falls, one that is secured rather than just leaning against a wall. Most diyers use no backup system at all, this one will improve the odds considerably. Professional kit would be even better. If people that use ladders and currently die adopt a secondary protectoin system, even something basic like this, many deaths and serious injuries would be prevented. The kit comes in at under =A340, most of the cost being for the harness.
NT
We all have a height tolerance threshold, which increases over time. OP will just have to get used to it gradually.
You must be using a very lighweight set of ladders to notice the effect of the standoff (either that or you have left the tin of paint on it!)
You may find one with wheels easier to handle:
Jim A
I know what you mean however I do find it much easier (whether the LadderMax is fitted or not) to manouvre the ladder with it vertical - you're then just having to contend with the actual weight as opposed to forces of leverage too.
Arguably easier said than done but with a bit of practice I can handle our 7m ladder okay, however when the day comes that it topples backwards/sideways and crashes through the neighbours patio doors perhaps I'll rethink the strategy...
Mathew
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